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Old 17 Oct 2020, 08:47 (Ref:4011123)   #226
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Problem is. Moving PU regulations up does not help RBR. They want no change and to keep whatever Honda produces at the end of 2021. Moving it up means if RBR takes the Honda IP, RBR will have to develop a new power unit (which they don't want to do)

Regarding what Honda may deliver in 2021... It's my understanding Honda could have brought an improve solutions for 2020, but pushed it back to 2021. So there is improvements yet to come from Honda before they leave.

Richard

I could be seen as a trade of for Reb Bull. Yes, they have to bridge the period between 2021 and 2023 and be less competitive then if they can't invest. If in return however, they get engine regulations that allows for competitive independent manufacturers the next 5-8 years, that might be a good trade-off for them.


For Ferrari, it's easier to keep their real world brand and product identity if they can retain combustion engines in their road cars, but keep it acceptable by having them run on synthetic fuel.
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Old 17 Oct 2020, 08:53 (Ref:4011124)   #227
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Ferrari are the only manufacturer that has always been here due to it’s passion for the sport. After all Enzo only produced road cars to pay for the racing programme
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Old 17 Oct 2020, 09:31 (Ref:4011129)   #228
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Originally Posted by wolfhound View Post
. The only non Mercedes, Red Bull or Ferrari win in the hybrid era has come from Alpha Tauri.
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Hmm, not entirely certain that is correct, they've had wins in 2014, 2016, 2017, 2018, 2019 and 2020 according to Wiki. That would be with Renault and Honda power.
I think you may have misunderstood the point Wolfhound was making Peter..... indeed the only non Red Bull/Ferrari/Mercedes team win in the hybrid era is that of Gasly in the Alpha Tauri this year at Monza. The last race prior to Gasly won by a team other than the 'big three' was Raikkonen in the Lotus at the Australian GP in 2013.

Of course in that time period Red Bull have won with engines by Renault and Honda, as have Ferrari won
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Old 17 Oct 2020, 09:39 (Ref:4011131)   #229
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My bad, I don't include RB as a Big team. I shall change my viewpoint.
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Old 17 Oct 2020, 09:54 (Ref:4011132)   #230
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My bad, I don't include RB as a Big team. I shall change my viewpoint.
.... they probably deserve a place this year more than a certain Red team.
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Old 17 Oct 2020, 14:05 (Ref:4011148)   #231
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They certainly have organised their team a lot better the Scuderia
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Old 24 Oct 2020, 06:41 (Ref:4012326)   #232
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Your on to something there.

So direct road relevance is potentially very unimportant. However the association with F1 and the ability to showcase technology in a generic way may be.

?????????????
Clearly Toto reads 10/10 as he is now saying that the manufacturers have not done enough to promote the technology behind the current hybrid F1 engines...!!!
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Old 24 Oct 2020, 07:12 (Ref:4012327)   #233
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Clearly Toto reads 10/10 as he is now saying that the manufacturers have not done enough to promote the technology behind the current hybrid F1 engines...!!!
Probably anxious that they will be banned!!
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Old 25 Oct 2020, 01:01 (Ref:4012617)   #234
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Probably anxious that they will be banned!!
I guess when you have sunk $4 billion plus into a dead end technology that only has one use, you are kind of invested!
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Old 25 Oct 2020, 07:56 (Ref:4012685)   #235
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From what Horner is saying if the FIA agree to an engine freeze from the end of 2021, then it will be the Honda engine programme for them. Mugen is now in Milton Keynes, which is handy....
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Old 30 Oct 2020, 23:45 (Ref:4013971)   #236
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Mercedes says they are perfectly happy to freeze the engines.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/me...-2022/4897981/

Ferrari says absolutely not!

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...-2022/4901200/

Of course Mercedes would be for it as they lead the pack. So it will do nothing but help them. And of course Ferrari would say no, because they are at the bottom and can't assume they will fix their power unit issues before the start of the 2022 season!

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Old 31 Oct 2020, 10:15 (Ref:4014028)   #237
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Originally Posted by Richard Casto View Post
Mercedes says they are perfectly happy to freeze the engines.

https://us.motorsport.com/f1/news/me...-2022/4897981/

Ferrari says absolutely not!

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...-2022/4901200/

Of course Mercedes would be for it as they lead the pack. So it will do nothing but help them. And of course Ferrari would say no, because they are at the bottom and can't assume they will fix their power unit issues before the start of the 2022 season!

Richard
The only one that really matters is Renault.

Do we really think they’ll want a freeze when there’s 50m a year for 4 years custom on the table? Naive if we do.
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Old 31 Oct 2020, 10:27 (Ref:4014030)   #238
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The only one that really matters is Renault.

Do we really think they’ll want a freeze when there’s 50m a year for 4 years custom on the table? Naive if we do.

Interesting comments from Cyril this morning stating that they wanted an engine freeze/ reduced budget cap 6 months ago but Honda/ Red Bull voted against it.

Renault now wont agree to an engine freeze because theyve invested money into the 2022 engine so dont want to see that investment wasted.

Its interesting because hes basically saying screw you Horner, while at the same time realising by doing so Red Bull will have to use the Renault engine, becuase without the freeze, Honda wont be competitive.
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Old 31 Oct 2020, 13:24 (Ref:4014060)   #239
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The only one that really matters is Renault.
Why does only Renault matter?

How would this change come about? With enough time lead is it a majority decision? If not enough lead time a unanimous decision? If Ferrari has veto power can’t they veto this either way? I would think Ferrari is the key and most difficult hurdle.

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Old 31 Oct 2020, 13:46 (Ref:4014063)   #240
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The reason is that it’s only Renault that RB can pay the big bucks to. Ferrari do matter too of course, but I can’t see RB with them. It’s no majority decision.
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Old 31 Oct 2020, 20:21 (Ref:4014147)   #241
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The reason is that it’s only Renault that RB can pay the big bucks to. Ferrari do matter too of course, but I can’t see RB with them. It’s no majority decision.
I think since it's a late rule change (the no-freeze was agreed previously and signed off) it has to be unanimous. Not sure if Ferrari has a veto on this one but I think they do.
That's why Red Bull wants FIA to step up and decide this one on their own.
Isn't going to happen, I'd think. Especially not if Renault and Ferrari publicly announce they do not want it.
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Old 31 Oct 2020, 21:21 (Ref:4014155)   #242
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Isn't going to happen, I'd think. Especially not if Renault and Ferrari publicly announce they do not want it.
I suppose that depends on how seriously they take the threat of Red Bull pulling both their teams out of f1.....
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Old 31 Oct 2020, 21:40 (Ref:4014160)   #243
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I suppose that depends on how seriously they take the threat of Red Bull pulling both their teams out of f1.....
Did they really threaten to leave F1 if they don't get it their way, or is that just rumour?

Still, I hope FIA doesn't give in to that kind of blackmail (Change the rules or we walk)
Not if Ferrari does it, not if Red Bull does it.
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Old 1 Nov 2020, 13:08 (Ref:4014259)   #244
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Did they really threaten to leave F1 if they don't get it their way, or is that just rumour?

Still, I hope FIA doesn't give in to that kind of blackmail (Change the rules or we walk)
Not if Ferrari does it, not if Red Bull does it.
https://f1i.com/news/387230-red-bull...ne-freeze.html
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Old 1 Nov 2020, 13:10 (Ref:4014262)   #245
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I propose a new rule. Any team or engine manufacturer who threatens to leave F1 if the rules aren't built the way they want them should be given a 10 year ban. Especially engine manufacturers only interested in pushing costs up to stop new entries.
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Old 1 Nov 2020, 13:14 (Ref:4014265)   #246
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Is it a threat or a financial reality?
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Old 1 Nov 2020, 13:20 (Ref:4014268)   #247
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Does it matter? The reason it could be a financial reality is because of teams like Red Bull, Renault and Mercedes demanding things go the way they want it. This is what happens when you let the competitors decide the rules. The rich popular ones build it how they want.

In this specific case I'd argue it's not a financial reality. They don't have to design their own engines. They can just use Renaults. If Horner wasn't such a gigantic unlikable tool who hadn't burnt every bridge at every opportunity, that would be a more viable option for them.
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Old 1 Nov 2020, 13:27 (Ref:4014275)   #248
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I think it matters. Even with the budget cap, the addition of an engine program, is a half billion a year spend. That matters.

And using a Renault engine may be a bigger waste of money. for them and honestly for us as fans as well imo.
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Old 1 Nov 2020, 13:35 (Ref:4014282)   #249
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But the only reason we're in the situation of engines costing half a billion is because we do listen to what teams want and bow down to these threats. We're, quite literally, having the rich dictate the rules, which suits them better - and then they profit off of selling these insane engines that only they want to the smaller teams. And then Mr Wollf, whilst rolling in his dollas tells everyone engines are cheap and they should sell them more expensive.

It's a ridiculous situation to be in and can only be solved by the FIA being a governing body and deciding the rules, rather than allowing the manufacturers to define them.
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Old 1 Nov 2020, 13:39 (Ref:4014286)   #250
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Agreed. The manus have too much power.

Might have done the sport some good if the top privateer took a harder stand.

But of course Mclaren are proving a team can come back though.
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