FIA/ACO to create universal GT class

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Simmi

If you switched out all the AM cars (with gentleman racers/budget) where does the money come from to run the Pro stuff?

Then, why don't they (GTE-AM) switch to race LMP2 AM (Faster)?.

I'm only guessing in 2010 FIA GT barely survived this way with half as worldwide repercussion as today's WEC, nowadays WEC has surpassed DTM (Behind F1) in terms of importance, and can be easily seen considering Kobayashi, Bruno Senna, Heidfeld, Di grassi, Buemi having Joined, and also GT3 running costs are lower than GTE, and GT-Unified costs must be kept low like if it was a "Religion commandment" .

[urdragon]

Consider, lots of teams have or can have a Semi Official team:

Reiter with a little of involvement of Lambo can join in a semiofficial team because they are doing FIA GT with two PROS.

JRM is easy since they come from the WEC already, only by GT3 car promotion,+ an Nismo aid.

BMW with MVDS with BES linup. (MVDs is considering Le Mans already)

Mercedes HTP or Schubert (Probably the harder, since Merc will abandon soon the SLS)

Audi (Phoenix o WRT) easy Funds.

Mclaren (Hexis clearly cant afford unless a Mc involvement, or Seb Loeb Racing)

Currently GTE Ferrari, AM, Corvette, Porsche, can they afford that? without the AM funds? Then do the BES (Or something similar) to earn more money.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by GT6

Le mans has survived for a long time now it has history and included within that is the chance for drivers with money to race at the top level and in the process fund teams that would otherwise not be there. Look at the GT class winners and you will see that they sometimes do very well. The structure of the pro am division allows for this and should be kept IMHO

There will be no need of that with ALMS, AsianLMS, ELMS and BES (for teams) providing funds in future, for top top teams. In my opinion WEC must be slightly non profitable (slightly only) in terms of GT's minimum, because there exist tons of champs to support WEC (teams).

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by Beetle

In a perfect world, I think we'd all love to see GT1s, GT2s, GT3s, and GT4s competing in one big race. But the exclusivity is what makes the WEC and Le Mans... well, the WEC and Le Mans!!!

I think the WEC needs more cars, though. GT1 is just impossible now - it has been discussed many times on this thread and I took great interest in following it. We can only dream...

But the "universal" GT class is an extraordinary idea. Just think of the diversity we'd have in the WEC!

Porsche
Ferrari
Lamborghini
McLaren
Mercedes-Benz
Aston Martin
Audi
BMW
Chevrolet
Ford
Jaguar (hopefully the F-Type in future years)
Bentley
Nissan
Honda (Super GT)
Acura (2014 plans)
Lexus (Super GT)
etc...

I wish they'd double the grid space at Le Mans for all of this. Maybe they will. The WEC would be about full with 55-60 per race... just like the old days!

Does anyone know when this idea will be implemented and come into action for real?

What little we have actually heard does not lend itself to a single ' universal class' of GT.
It has however pointed to the mfgs. utilizing a single model at various levels (classes) of performance via upgrade kits. Maybe if/when this is brought about we will be back to having clearly delineated classes of GT1, 2, 3 & 4 with an agreed upon (mfgs & sanctioning bodies) performance window for each.






L.P.

[NaBUru38]

The less classes, the better.

The World Endurance Championship, United SportsCar, Blancpain and Nürburgring 24h should have a single main GT class. That's jsut merging GTE with GTE, which is what the ACO and FIA are discussing now.

[urdragon]

(Kit) Classes is only a meant of forcing control of costs at any prize, but the matter is that any I+D (out of factories in road cars) in GT's is not traduced to a road car advances because they follow other direction, then is useless, if they cannot control costs arises, then the kit formula is surelly the best, cause allways there is available a basic kit.

When will they learn there is LMP1 class efforts for I+D racing, and not GT racing?

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

Then, why don't they (GTE-AM) switch to race LMP2 AM (Faster)?.

Faster isn't always better and it wouldn't make sense for a team like Aston Martin to have 2 Pro GT cars and 2 AM P2 cars.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

Currently GTE Ferrari, AM, Corvette, Porsche, can they afford that? without the AM funds? Then do the BES (Or something similar) to earn more money.

Why would a GTE team spend more money on a GT3 car? The GTE-Am class allows teams to use the same cars and bring in money to run their pro efforts.

Teams/manufacturers have been doing this since the beginning of Le Mans.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

and it wouldn't make sense for a team like Aston Martin to have 2 Pro GT cars and 2 AM P2 cars.

Agree, see to solve this (**).

Originally Posted by Salamus

Why would a GTE team spend more money on a GT3 car? The GTE-Am class allows teams to use the same cars and bring in money to run their pro efforts.

Teams/manufacturers have been doing this since the beginning of Le Mans.

(*) We are talking about a extrapolation of gt3/gte to an unified class (Or something GT+ hosting 9-10 best current brands), why do you want AMateurs in the best championship in the world?, in LMPs has a reason but in GTs not There are/will be tons of GTs around the world (Sro/SuperGt...).

(**) That unified class or a suposated GT+ class funds can be obtained anywhere else than the best champ of the world, unless you don't like variety in brands and prefer the actual GT format (anyway don't the ELMS,ALMS, Asian LMS belong to the ACO? for hosting those AMs and leaving competitiveness (Lap times, safety)to the WEC?).

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

(*) We are talking about a extrapolation of gt3/gte to an unified class (Or something GT+ hosting 9-10 best current brands), why do you want AMateurs in the best championship in the world?, in LMPs has a reason but in GTs not There are/will be tons of GTs around the world (Sro/SuperGt...).

(**) That unified class or a suposated GT+ class funds can be obtained anywhere else than the best champ of the world, unless you don't like variety in brands and prefer the actual GT format (anyway don't the ELMS,ALMS, Asian LMS belong to the ACO? for hosting those AMs and leaving competitiveness (Lap times, safety)to the WEC?).

It doesn't matter how many brands will be in the class or how much variety there will be. The fact is, some teams need funding in order to race in the WEC and Le Mans. These amateurs who provide the funds expect to be able to race at Le Mans for the team. In return, the team can use the extra funds to field pro cars. Like I said before, teams/manufacturers have been using this method for a very long time.

The "best championship in the world" doesn't necessarily have to be entirely pro line-ups. Amateurs are just as important for the health of sportscar racing as manufacturers are.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

It doesn't matter how many brands will be in the class or how much variety there will be. The fact is, some teams need funding in order to race in the WEC and Le Mans. These amateurs who provide the funds expect to be able to race at Le Mans for the team. In return, the team can use the extra funds to field pro cars. Like I said before, teams/manufacturers have been using this method for a very long time.

The "best championship in the world" doesn't necessarily have to be entirely pro line-ups. Amateurs are just as important for the health of sportscar racing as manufacturers are.

There is two options then:

1 Continue as it is but reducing the copies of each car (1to2 cars pro, 1to2 cars am) (8x4=32, there are 10 brands but, makes like lambo will not enter 4 cars) if you want more brands, In a hypotethic Mercedes, Nissan, Lamborghini, Audi, BMW, Mclaren entering (+the 4 GTE brands).

(This includes forced (MAX) 1 pro car 1 am car per team (2 teams per brand) )

or

2 The other option only pro lineups (To economic loses, like Fia GT has done for good or bad) in the big WC.

Anyway in case of a unified class things will change.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by urdragon

There is two options then:

1 Continue as it is but reducing the copies of each car (1to2 cars pro, 1to2 cars am) (8x4=32, there are 10 brands but, makes like lambo will not enter 4 cars) if you want more brands, In a hypotethic Mercedes, Nissan, Lamborghini, Audi, BMW, Mclaren entering (+the 4 GTE brands).

(This includes forced (MAX) 1 pro car 1 am car per team (2 teams per brand) )

or

2 The other option only pro lineups (To economic loses, like Fia GT has done for good or bad) in the big WC.

Anyway in case of a unified class things will change.

It will not be a 'Unified class' though! It will be a single platform (car) per mfg. under a 'Universal GT ruleset'. It will still have several classes/levels of competition.




L.P.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

There is two options then:

1 Continue as it is but reducing the copies of each car (1to2 cars pro, 1to2 cars am) (8x4=32, there are 10 brands but, makes like lambo will not enter 4 cars) if you want more brands, In a hypotethic Mercedes, Nissan, Lamborghini, Audi, BMW, Mclaren entering (+the 4 GTE brands).

(This includes forced (MAX) 1 pro car 1 am car per team (2 teams per brand))

A WEC grid can only have a maximum of 35 full-time entries. So, there will never be more than 22 GT cars. And why does it matter how many cars a single team can run or how crappy the variety of cars is. If AF Corse wants to run 5 cars, let them, same with AMR. This idea of limiting the number of entries a team can have or the number of entries a manufacturer can have is ridiculous.

Originally Posted by urdragon

2 The other option only pro lineups (To economic loses, like Fia GT has done for good or bad) in the big WC.

Anyway in case of a unified class things will change.

I don't think you understood what I said before, so I'll say it again. You can't have all-pro line-ups. Where would teams get their funding. Amateurs are essential for sports car racing.

Here is an idea. How about we change NOTHING. As far as I'm concerned, GT-Pro and GT-Am has been fantastic. GT-Am attracts small teams and investors while GT-Pro attracts manufacturers and professionals.

[aneesh99]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Here is an idea. How about we change NOTHING. As far as I'm concerned, GT-Pro and GT-Am has been fantastic. GT-Am attracts small teams and investors while GT-Pro attracts manufacturers and professionals.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by Salamus

Here is an idea. How about we change NOTHING. As far as I'm concerned, GT-Pro and GT-Am has been fantastic. GT-Am attracts small teams and investors while GT-Pro attracts manufacturers and professionals.

This. And the investors often hire younger drivers who eventually become the next generation of factory GT or even factory LMP drivers.

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

A WEC grid can only have a maximum of 35 full-time entries. So, there will never be more than 22 GT cars.

Why??? Lack of space? I cannot imagine why any round cannot have more cars, ahhh yeah the AM's cars speed once again in front of LMP1's => Suboptimal. Like Petrov in F1...

Originally Posted by Salamus

And why does it matter how many cars a single team can run or how crappy the variety of cars is. If AF Corse wants to run 5 cars, let them, same with AMR. This idea of limiting the number of entries a team can have or the number of entries a manufacturer can have is ridiculous.

Where? can anyone to host the 100 R8 in the world or the 66 SLS amg or the Mclarens, Lambos, GTR, bentley, or a miraculous budget for a Camaro or Ford GT, WHY you want a new class to substitute GT3 and GTE if all's ok in GT's....

Originally Posted by Salamus

I don't think you understood what I said before, so I'll say it again. You can't have all-pro line-ups. Where would teams get their funding. Amateurs are essential for sports car racing.

No space, for a Hypotetical JRM GT's factory effort on WEC to sell customer GTRs + a Hypotetical Reiter GT's factory effort on WEC to sell customer Lambos + a Hypotetical HEXIS GT's factory effort on WEC to sell customer Mcs + R8 with any Belgian audi clubs.

Originally Posted by Salamus

GT-Am attracts small teams and investors

Stolen to the ELMS, how interesting...

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

This. And the investors often hire younger drivers who eventually become the next generation of factory GT or even factory LMP drivers.

Why WEC?, can't the ELMS, ALMS, ASLMS, BES, FIA GT, Super GT, there is plenty of stuff to form drivers. Except you want them to learn to be advanced by a LMP1 driven by Fassler/Treluyer/Lotterer.(What is different to ELMS, ALMS, ASLMS)

[urdragon]

Originally Posted by Salamus

A WEC grid can only have a maximum of 35 full-time entries. So, there will never be more than 22 GT cars.

Ok I understand that you need to let space for the LM24h but nothing prevents me only letting PROs in GTS to increase the Speed and add a few cars more consquently, and increase safety consequently.

Even making Le Sarthe bigger could be considered! (A la Nordchleife-Nurburgring)

[Speed-King]

The big problem I see with GTE nowadays is that it's almost completely an ACO-only formula. (plus a handfull of Ferraris in Int'l. GT-Open). What that means is that the WEC and ELMS are no longer connected to the rest of the European racing scence. 6 or 7 years ago, many FIA GT or national GT teams would join the LMS for their home races and shore up the grids (many of them eventually joining the LMS full time a year or two later). With GT2 dying out on the national scene, that possibility has pretty much vanished.

The ELMS has remedied this to a degree by including the GT3-cars, they'll have a pretty nice field for their Imola round, and precisely due to one-offs from the GT3-ranks.

[Salamus]

Originally Posted by urdragon

Why??? Lack of space? I cannot imagine why any round cannot have more cars, ahhh yeah the AM's cars speed once again in front of LMP1's => Suboptimal. Like Petrov in F1...

The ACO gives out invitations to ALMS, ELMS, and AsLMS entries for the 24 Hours of Le Mans. That is why the WEC grid has never been over 35 cars. However, part-time entries can still compete, that is why some races (especially Spa) have seen grids with 50-60 entries.

Originally Posted by urdragon

Where? can anyone to host the 100 R8 in the world or the 66 SLS amg or the Mclarens, Lambos, GTR, bentley, or a miraculous budget for a Camaro or Ford GT, WHY you want a new class to substitute GT3 and GTE if all's ok in GT's....

No space, for a Hypotetical JRM GT's factory effort on WEC to sell customer GTRs + a Hypotetical Reiter GT's factory effort on WEC to sell customer Lambos + a Hypotetical HEXIS GT's factory effort on WEC to sell customer Mcs + R8 with any Belgian audi clubs.

I was just stating that I do not like Ratel's rules about limiting the number of entries for teams or manufacturers. If a manufacturer like Aston Martin or a team like AF Corse can run 5 cars, then they should be allowed, as long as there is space on the grid.

An important thing to note about the WEC is the fact that the ACO loves its prototypes. You will never see more than 25 full-time GT entries in the WEC because the prototype entries will always be favoured.

Originally Posted by urdragon

Stolen to the ELMS, how interesting...

Which teams left the WEC for ELMS?

Originally Posted by urdragon

Why WEC?, can't the ELMS, ALMS, ASLMS, BES, FIA GT, Super GT, there is plenty of stuff to form drivers. Except you want them to learn to be advanced by a LMP1 driven by Fassler/Treluyer/Lotterer.(What is different to ELMS, ALMS, ASLMS)

Like I have said before, the WEC is not an all-professional racing series. If an amateur or young driver has the money to race in the WEC, they are welcome to join.

urdragon, I have repeated myself a couple of times now. I understand that you have an idea of how the WEC should be and I am trying to tell you that your idea is not feasible. I can't change your mind, but try to understand that amateurs will always be in the WEC and at Le Mans. Yes, the proposed unification of GT cars will increase the diversity in the WEC GT category but GT-AM will still continue to exist in the WEC.

[urdragon]

Ok I think I got it, each separated series is supposed to be self-sustainable, the problematic issue with this argument is the lack of space at the WEC, if the full season grid is 35, then the max GT grid is 18-17 and separated by classes, 9-8 Cars so it would led that if the wec wanted the same diversity as BES would have those ratel's rules or less diversity, which makes this kind of growth problematic (If U value full season commitments, champ points and those things that make multi-event championships commercial).

And the difference of performances between LMP1's and GT's driven by AM's that makes the event more dangerous, even in a track like Spa it would be dangerous, horrifying accidents like McNish's in 2011 often are caused with this ruleset, and anytime can cause a tragedy, hope not. This reminds me why totto wolf has forbiden her woman to run Resistance. So money at the cost of safety maybe.

[Mt. Lynx]

I kind of agree with urdragon here. The GT-AM class should be gone. But for an entirely different reason in my case. In the GT1/GT2 days, the PRO/AM classifications did not exist in ACO racing, since basically every team racing had AM participants.

I understand that the GT-AM basically exists to give the GTE cars better value, but given that with the same material as the PRO class, AM would be about as quick, I think the AM class is sort of a fake class. Let them run together like they used to.

If this "unification" comes to the fruition wanted, with lower costs as a result, the AM class has little purpose. At least for the cars. Just use the GT3 classifications if need be.

[Dead-Eye]

Originally Posted by Salamus

The ACO gives out invitations to ALMS, ELMS, and AsLMS entries for the 24 Hours of Le Mans. That is why the WEC grid has never been over 35 cars. However, part-time entries can still compete, that is why some races (especially Spa) have seen grids with 50-60 entries.

Spa has never had more than 42 entries as a WEC round, because that's the amount of cars that can fit into the F1 pits.

[NaBUru38]

Originally Posted by Mt. Lynx

I understand that the GT-AM basically exists to give the GTE cars better value, but given that with the same material as the PRO class, AM would be about as quick, I think the AM class is sort of a fake class. Let them run together like they used to.

If this "unification" comes to the fruition wanted, with lower costs as a result, the AM class has little purpose.

There's lots of GTE cars in the World Endurance Championship, and lots of them are all-pro. If there wasn't a GTE-Am class, amateurs wouldn't be abled to fight for podiums. It's a way to let them compete for the win.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by NaBUru38

There's lots of GTE cars in the World Endurance Championship, and lots of them are all-pro. If there wasn't a GTE-Am class, amateurs wouldn't be abled to fight for podiums. It's a way to let them compete for the win.

It's a world championship for crying out loud! If you can't stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen! And even under the old format there usually were some classes that were more competitive than others, so amateurs usually found a place to have a decent shot at winning without getting their own bespoke class.

By having GTE-Am the series loses diversity and credibility, the day they get rid of it can't come soon enough. I'd much rather have a proper GT2-class (with current GTE being GT1) again than the current farce.