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Old 26 Mar 2018, 12:12 (Ref:3810904)   #2686
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Originally Posted by littleman View Post
Current F1 cars are a perfect way for manufacturers to demonstrate their fabulous, cutting edge, technical capabilities.

But that's all they should do.........run demonstration laps.

Don't try and race the damn things because they're useless at that.
You are right, about all they are doing is running demo laps.
Lewis qualified on pole at 1:21.164, the fastest lap of the race was set by Ricciardo at 1:25.954 with Hamilton at 1:26.444 and Vettel the winner at 1:26.469. The fastest race lap by anybody was 4.79 sec off the pole time and the fastest race lap by the pole sitter Hamilton was 5.28 seconds off pole.

In short, no passing and just droning around to a delta a long way off the ultimate pace of the car, this is not a motor race it is a regularity trial.
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 13:07 (Ref:3810928)   #2687
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Originally Posted by wnut View Post
You are right, about all they are doing is running demo laps.
Lewis qualified on pole at 1:21.164, the fastest lap of the race was set by Ricciardo at 1:25.954 with Hamilton at 1:26.444 and Vettel the winner at 1:26.469. The fastest race lap by anybody was 4.79 sec off the pole time and the fastest race lap by the pole sitter Hamilton was 5.28 seconds off pole.

In short, no passing and just droning around to a delta a long way off the ultimate pace of the car, this is not a motor race it is a regularity trial.
But surely this is what has happened over the past decades; race pace, even fastest laps, have rarely reflected qualifying times.

Go back not that long, and they even had highly stressed qualifying engines run on rocket fuel. And the teams only cared that the engine would last long enough to finish the qualifying period.

So, it's nothing new in F1.
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Old 26 Mar 2018, 14:47 (Ref:3810959)   #2688
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Originally Posted by Taxi645 View Post
https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/hill-hits-out-at-mercedes-ferrari-1018577/


"massive industrial complexes are ruining the sport"


I say spot on Damon. Well done and thank you for speaking up!
so im of the both agree and disagree on this one.

on the engine side i disagree in that Renault had a major hand in crafting the current engine formula and the rules were changed to allow Honda to try to catch up faster...ultimately Renault and Honda (both companies with Merc and Ferrari type monies) had the chance to do well but for other reasons did not....that part of it is the way it has always been.

the part i agree with though is the 'massive' aspect...the advantages they carry through the size of their facilities, wind tunnel and super computers/CFD modeling capabilities, the overall size of their staff, multiple design and race teams/departments, data analysis departments, real time race simulation centres etc are insurmountable.

these are advantages borne strictly out of money imo. anyways yada yada yada budget caps, resource restriction agreements, fairer payment terms.
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 03:04 (Ref:3811135)   #2689
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https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...tal-overtaking

Snip
"One of our aims, which we are looking at with the FIA and the teams is that, for 2021, we want to have cars that allow drivers to really fight one another on track.
"To that end, the FIA and F1 are carrying out an aerodynamic research programme with two car models, both in the windtunnel and using CFD."


Gee wonder if they are Indy car models. I know they have push to pass but at least they can follow each other and get close enough to actually pass.

Get rid of the multi plane front wing for a start.
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 13:14 (Ref:3811239)   #2690
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littleman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridlittleman should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Here's a question I find quite challenging.

How much increase in qualifying/lap times would F1 fans, teams and drivers be willing to concede in order to bring about closer racing and more overtaking?
(ie: strip away most of the aero).

For example, MotoGP racing is absolutely sensational.Has everything an F1 fan could possibly wish for.

However, they lap Silverstone GP Circuit at very similar times to GTE/GT3 cars. About 30 seconds per lap slower than an F1 car.

Does this matter if the racing is totally enthralling?
Do we actually care that much about lap times ?
How much should be conceded?........5 secs, 10 secs, more/less?
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 13:45 (Ref:3811245)   #2691
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Originally Posted by littleman View Post
Here's a question I find quite challenging.

How much increase in qualifying/lap times would F1 fans, teams and drivers be willing to concede in order to bring about closer racing and more overtaking?
(ie: strip away most of the aero).

For example, MotoGP racing is absolutely sensational.Has everything an F1 fan could possibly wish for.

However, they lap Silverstone GP Circuit at very similar times to GTE/GT3 cars. About 30 seconds per lap slower than an F1 car.

Does this matter if the racing is totally enthralling?
Do we actually care that much about lap times ?
How much should be conceded?........5 secs, 10 secs, more/less?
But F1 is supposed to be the pinnacle of motorsport and therefore couldn't be seen to be reducing speeds.
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 13:48 (Ref:3811248)   #2692
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Originally Posted by littleman View Post
Here's a question I find quite challenging.

How much increase in qualifying/lap times would F1 fans, teams and drivers be willing to concede in order to bring about closer racing and more overtaking?
(ie: strip away most of the aero).

For example, MotoGP racing is absolutely sensational.Has everything an F1 fan could possibly wish for.

However, they lap Silverstone GP Circuit at very similar times to GTE/GT3 cars. About 30 seconds per lap slower than an F1 car.

Does this matter if the racing is totally enthralling?
Do we actually care that much about lap times ?
How much should be conceded?........5 secs, 10 secs, more/less?
Good question. I think the first problem we bump up against is that if F1 somehow becomes slower to increase quality of racing, that other series become "Faster than F1". Such as GP2/F2 and WEC cars turning quicker lap times. I don't know how I feel about that. It seems to be a big deal for some people.

Richard

EDIT: bjohnsonsmith beat me to it!
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 13:50 (Ref:3811250)   #2693
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The thing is they are starting to have a ridiculous amount of aero again and as a result they are cornering too quickly and we aren't getting enough close racing.
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 14:12 (Ref:3811257)   #2694
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Some interesting replies......thanks.

My thinking is, keep taking the aero off the cars until we reach the point that they can race each other, stay close behind, regularly get the opportunity to out brake each other and can pass using slipstreaming rather than DRS.

I don't know how much slower the lap times will be before the tipping point is reached. My hunch is, F1 cars will still be faster than other categories.......but by a smaller margin.

Surely in this day and age it must be possible to model the "tipping point".
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 14:18 (Ref:3811259)   #2695
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with safety and reliability going up plus miles of paved tarmac, why not return to ground effects and active suspension...lap times will stay the same/go up and the danger from higher cornering speeds have perhaps already been mitigated by track design?

also increase the number of PUs allowed...

its never one thing in F1, but how much was overtaking hurt due to the conservative use of engine power and the 3 PU allotment rule?
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 14:35 (Ref:3811263)   #2696
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Sodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSodemo should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Make the cars faster in the slow corners which is where people can mostly see the cars. The one thing which always sticks out about footage from 1990-1994 is how much faster the cars are around the slower corners. All of the following things work against the cars now in this aspect;

- Much longer wheelbase
- Much heavier cars
- 2000mm width vs 2200mm

Allow more elaborate suspension, but just cut back massively on the aero, and address the points above. Stipulate a maximum wheelbase, lose the heavy hybrid junk and make the cars wider again.
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 15:26 (Ref:3811273)   #2697
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Originally Posted by sizzle View Post
https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...tal-overtaking

Snip
"One of our aims, which we are looking at with the FIA and the teams is that, for 2021, we want to have cars that allow drivers to really fight one another on track.
"To that end, the FIA and F1 are carrying out an aerodynamic research programme with two car models, both in the windtunnel and using CFD."


Gee wonder if they are Indy car models. I know they have push to pass but at least they can follow each other and get close enough to actually pass.

Get rid of the multi plane front wing for a start.
This is the part where Brawn has just about lost me.

"When there is only a small speed gap between two cars then it's almost impossible for the pursuer to get close enough to mount an attack."

It isn't the small speed gap that means the cars can't follow each other closely Ross! Nascar has the whole field of cars within a smaller speed gap than the first few rows of an F1 grid yet they are literally bumper to bumper on track.

F1 cars struggle to follow within 0.4 seconds behind the car in front, and pass without a 2-second lap speed advantage purely because of the aero dependence. I agree with you sizzle, I say regulate a single plane front wing, ban 'appendages' on the front half of the car and similar for the rear although that should take care of itself for balance reasons. This would also go a long way to reducing the disparity between the large and small teams.

Ignore complaints about the cars being unstable, that is a feature not a defect! Hamilton was able to take turns 11-12 flat last weekend which is ridiculous, and there are many other examples. Racing should mean overtaking on track not purely via pit stops.

The FIA is also capable of reducing downforce for the lower formulas as well so that they won't end up faster than F1 if that is a concern.

To Hill's point, commentary on the weekend talked about the big teams having 2000 staff! Just think that McLaren were winning in the late 1960s with something like 20 staff, and also producing CanAm and other cars at the same time.
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 15:52 (Ref:3811279)   #2698
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Originally Posted by littleman View Post
Some interesting replies......thanks.

My thinking is, keep taking the aero off the cars until we reach the point that they can race each other, stay close behind, regularly get the opportunity to out brake each other and can pass using slipstreaming rather than DRS.

I don't know how much slower the lap times will be before the tipping point is reached. My hunch is, F1 cars will still be faster than other categories.......but by a smaller margin.

Surely in this day and age it must be possible to model the "tipping point".
This is what they did with IndyCar. They scrapped the Chevy and Honda aero-kits and went for the Universal Aero Kit, which is ground effect. Downforce has now been reduced but it hasn't affected lap times. At the opening race of this season, the track record was broken.

This is quite an interesting take on things from Mario Andretti.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/135045
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 16:15 (Ref:3811287)   #2699
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Hats off to Indy Car,F1 take notice!

Maybe it's easier for IndyCar to force these changes through.Apart from the engines, the entry list isn't blighted by global manufacturer teams each using intimidation tactics to get their own way.

Come on Ross Brawn and the FIA........grow a pair.
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Old 27 Mar 2018, 22:33 (Ref:3811366)   #2700
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Hats off to Indy Car,F1 take notice!

Maybe it's easier for IndyCar to force these changes through.Apart from the engines, the entry list isn't blighted by global manufacturer teams each using intimidation tactics to get their own way.

Come on Ross Brawn and the FIA........grow a pair.
Plus one to this from me.

Agree with Sizzle's single plane front wing, make it a single airfoil profile spec while you are at it and it must clear between the front rims.

Lap times do not matter as far as I am concerned, the racing however does.

If you take the KERS systems off the cars while you're at it and lighten them by 200 kg, the lap times will drop and the racing will get better.
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