Unification and some other stuff

[Kicking-back]

NOTE - this was in the Silly Season thread, but it got a bit OT so now it's got it's own thread

I think we may well see a few more Champ Car teams move over, particularly as the IndyCar series is moving towards a road/oval mix.

[Tim Northcutt]

I don't know if we will see OWRS teams cross over....

Many of those owners have a love for that Series, and/or they hate Tony George....

I think they will stay where they are....

Some drivers could come over....but I don't think teams will....

That's just my opinion....

[GP Racer]

To be honest with you, I'm not sure that OWRS will even answer the bell for next season. They have some serious problems to deal with.

There stateside races are just dead. There is virtually no interest in there series here at home any longer, and none of the foreign races they were trying to put together have panned out either. The TV contract with Spike has just been a disaster to. Road racing has come to the IRL, which will directly compete with them, and if Long Beach comes over, they will have no real marqui races left. And when your best drivers like Carpentier cannot find a seat, well...

Any fan of the old CART can see this is not working. Its going to take more than hot air from Gentilozzi, the blovinator, to keep this series alive. And so far hot air, and an official fast food, is about all he has to offer...

[Kicking-back]

It's time for one series.

If that means the end of Champ Car, it will be for the greater good long term.

Better to have one strong open wheel series, than two of them tearing each other apart and ending up with none.

[BootsOntheSide]

Precisely. The 2005 IRL should have all the ingredients you'd want from a US open wheel series - a good balance of circuits, a grid of 22+ competitive cars running a variety of chassis and engines, thrilling racing week in week out, classic events, new events, revived events, stable leadership, much-improved (although not perfect, but it never will be) safety, the greatest US names coupled with international stars (and presumably no 'stepping stone to F1' guys), and so on.

Which teams do we expect to run in IRl if CART doesn't return? Newman Haas for sure, RuSport and TAFKA Herdez are likely, and maybe the Three Amigos and their teams would consider it. A race in each of Canada and Mexico could be wise for 2006 at least.

[Kicking-back]

Allmendinger and Wilson are among the drivers who would be assets to a "single" series.

[JohnSSC]

It is looking more and more like reunification will happen on it's own accord.

imho, the "blovinator" (I just love that!) and the rest of the Amigos missed a golden opportunity this summer when Penske arrived under the white flag.

Now this is not to say I believe OWRS won't answer the bell, but there just does not seem to be any momentum building to support the series. Throw in the uncertainty regarding Cosworth and the ongoing technical stagnation of the series and one has to wonder.

Not saying that the IRL is in super shape either, but it sure appears to me that they are making steady, if not unspectacular progress toward establishing themselves as "the" open wheel series.

As my 18 year old would say, IRL is engaging in "small, consistent, efforts" to improve their Series.

Those "small, consistent, efforts" are adding up to make a difference.

[BootsOntheSide]

Your 18 year old sounds more observant and articulate than average John, well done.

Realistically, AJ and RHR would be good for the IRL, as would Bourdais, Wilson, Carpentier and perhaps Junquiera, Tracy and Tagliani. No one else has the fan power, ability or personality to add to the series.

[jhansen]

Star power is not what's needed. A unified strong series with quality racing is and should remain the priority.

Nobody knew the NASCAR drivers untill the series became a household name. The star power of their drivers was an after effect.

[luke]

But the trouble is Ryan Hunter-Raey in Champcars could be next sucsesful american driver but he has stated that he has been offered several drives in the IRL but he has siad that he wants to be in the F1 which is his ultamit goal and that Champcars is the best way of getting there and Justin Wilson and Michel Jourdain Jr. But with Road corses and Street circuits I hope the IRL atracts more drivers and talent.

[GP Racer]

Originally posted by JohnSSC
As my 18 year old would say, IRL is engaging in "small, consistent, efforts" to improve their Series.

Those "small, consistent, efforts" are adding up to make a difference.

Funny, I just read an interview with Eddie Cheever, and he said, "NASCAR's concept of sticking to one thing for a very long time, slowly evolving the message, has proved to be very successful".

Sounds very similar to what your son is talking about. I think that message is getting through now, and is the series is now reaping the rewards. The IRL, like Boots put very nicely, has all the ingredients you could ask for in an open wheel series. If this series stays on message, I just don't see how it can fail.

[JohnSSC]

Thanks for the good words about my son Tim. He uses that phrase a good bit! And yes, he is a good observer and the type of kid who knows how to go out and accomplish the things he wants to do. I know that proud dads abound, but he is truly one of those kids who I enjoy knowing as a person - not just because he is my son!

Now about the topic! I have been impressed with this aspect of how TG is running the IRL. Obviously I do not agree with everything he has done/does. In this avenue though he has really shown me something. He has stayed the course so to speak on certain issues: close racing, some semblance of affordability and sticking to their knitting.

He has shown however the ability to adjust when necessary (resolving safety issues) and being flexible in approach (returning to road-racing) to expand the fan base and attract new teams/sponsors.

I hate to say it, but the 3 Amigos could learn something by reviewing TG's approach.

[Tim Northcutt]

BootsOnThe Side had those kind words about your son....

But he just beat me to it....he is wise way beyond his years

and I would agree with the rest of your post....I think the iRl is on the right track, and the talk about teams expanding is great news....

[BootsOntheSide]

Would it be a good thing to have drivers who are looking towards F1 though? CART lost most of it's mid-late 90s champions that way. Even if guys like Wilson, RHR and Junquiera remain in CART (or move to IRL) they'd probably view it as a second prize. Then again de Ferran adjusted his racing priorities twice quite well - from F1 to CART to IRL.

[JohnSSC]

I figured Tim, that you would take a liking to my son based on name similarity!

But thank you on both counts!

[JohnSSC]

Boots, I think that if your talent pool is going to include European drivers, if you will, then there will be a focus on their part to get a hand on the "brass ring" of F1.

This "distraction" if you will has to be viewed as a cost of doing business for Open Wheel here. If we are going to attract talent to OWRS/IRL we are going to have to allow for some of that talent moving on to the Big Show. If those drivers see this as a dead end, they may not exercise the option to come here.

[GP Racer]

It doesn't have to be that way John. The CART of the 80's was viewed as the top rung, not a dead end, and I believe the IRL has the potential to be a sought after, top rung series to.

Just listen to Dan Wheldon speak. He is easily the best ambasador the IRL has ever had. He is always telling whoever will listen that the IRL is hands down the most competitive, challenging, fastest and closest racing in the world. And he says he has no plans now or in the future of ever leaving this series, not even for F1, which he often makes jokes about.

The series needs more guys like him, that truly believe that the IRL is that good. That attitude is infectous, and will get passed on to fans, and maybe, you become the top rung again...

[jhansen]

CART was never on the top rung. Perhaps to North American fans it was, but not from the global perspective. Successfull single-seater road racers strive to reach F1. That hasn't changed. And having drivers in the series that want to chase F1, or have left F1 doesn't have to be a bad thing.

[Snrub]

Hmm...where to start... I'll only address a couple things.

You guys made some good points about the IRL making small steps towards success, but to compare that to CC is difficult because it's problems are larger.

Regarding unified series, I will continue to support CC because it's formula (not just car construction) has produced astounding racing before. The IRL has produced some good races, but there's still maybe 25% of what the best CC races have been. Even in it's wounded state CC has produced some very good races. I'm not suggesting that they're at the level of before or consistantly at that level, but there's a lot of potential, whereas the IRL seems to have little interest in improving the races. I get the feeling that when the racing isn't "stuck side by side" people are disappointed!

Regarding the "technologically stale" accusation, I find it quiet amusing comming from the IRL side. It's not a particularly technologically advanced series. The core of CC technology has a LOT more money spent to develop it. Toyota spends ~$25M (estimated based on $50M spent on North American racing) on the IRL compared to when they were in CC spending $200M. Those figures are from Toyota. Personally I think this is an unimportant arguement anyway because it's about the racing and if anything the IRL's ability to maintain costs is more likely to keep things stable.

[jhansen]

The shape a unified series might take is an interesting question.

You bring up the thought that IRL fans are only interested if it's "side by side" racing. NASCAR anyone? My one dislike of the IRL is that it's "trying" to be NASCAR with no fenders. The American racefan has been sucked into this product and it continues to spread. Grand Am is the lastest edition of the NASCAR product line. The IRL is not owned by the France family, but I'm sure they see the popularity and potential dollar signs of copying it. I often wish that the typical American race fan could see that there is more to racing than lots of cars stuck together by rules, yellow flags, and near identical pit strategies.

You can't get away from the two philosophies though (CART of yore vs. the IRL). Which also means two very different fan bases. The ideal unified series would seek to satisfy both spheres. But the reality is, that probably wont happen. It will be decided by the business folks and their idea of what the "perfect" North American open wheel race series should be like.

[JohnSSC]

Snrub:

First by your comment of: "from the IRL side" I take it that you feel I have chosen sides (which is certainly your privilege - no problem there!). However, to paraphrase Treebeard the Ent (Lord of the Rings): "I am not on anyone's side because no one is completely on my side."

When possible, I watch both series. For me this season that has been tough due to my schedule. Either way, I try to read up on things and what I am trying to impart is that my overall impression of the IRL is of incremental improvements not only in the "Show" but the way the Series is run and the improving quality of teams/drivers/sponsors of that Series.

By saying this I am NOT knocking OWRS. They are in a different situation obviously. I do wish that the Amigos could find and maintain that type of positive momentum, though.

In re: the "technologically stale" comment. The basic chassis formula/aero package/tire package/powerplant goes back now some 4 seasons, iirc. Yes it has in the past and continues to provide some good races. Simple economics I understand has required the formula to be more or less frozen. There are few teams who could afford to move to a new chassis for example because they can't afford the chassis in the first place and can't afford the testing necessary to figure out how it works best.

IRL has not set the world afire here either, but in that regard they are taking an incremental approach that is seeing the chassis evolve (road racing capable)and of course the engine change down to 3.0 liters.

It is a shame that our "premier" North American open wheel racing has got to the point where there is no ongoing push for more than baby steps as far as speed. Remember when Penske built their own chassis? When you had Lolas and (competetive) Reynards? Essentially everyone is driving a really fast Atlantic.

And no, to me good racing is not "side by side" ala NASCAR. I just want to see good, competitive racing where passing is possible on a regular basis without "push to pass" or special sticky tires that HAVE to be used, etc.

You run what you brung an I'll run what I brung and let's see who is faster!

[GP Racer]

In todays sports world you have to entertain.

People no longer have the patience or time to sit down and watch a race where one car dominates the field by laps, ALMS, or watch 62 laps of race to see somebody finally make a move for the lead, CC, F1. I'm just generalizing here, but you get my drift. Today, there are far to many other entertainment options available, and unless your a hard-core race fan or techie, you want some entertainment for your money.

I said this last year, that for better or worse, IMO the IRL, NASCAR, and Grand Am will be the dominant racing in North America. They are the series that new fans will gravitate to, because as soon as you turn it on, you see passing, lead changes, and wheel to wheel racing, in other words, it's exciting and it entertains you.

PS - and don't give me the dumbed down racing argument either...

[jhansen]

But that's more or less what you're saying GP Racer. The People have spoken and they want dumbed down racing. If you like it then more power to you. But there is more to racing than that in my opinion.

The problem with promoting "the show" is that eventually people get tired of the show. Then you have to reinvent yourself. We have seen that this year with NASCAR and "the chase" for the championship. They're desperate to stop the slow decline in ratings and keep people glued to their sets. It's sponsor driven racing. And it's darn boring on top of that. So is Grand Am. Contrived competition will always start strong and then fade away. Pay per view wrestling is another example of a product that is all about "sports entertainment." They had huge ratings just a few years ago. And what do they do? They stage wrestling matches. Eventually though, it gets out of hand and people lose interest.

I hope the IRL does not go down this road. God help our lazy and unimaginative nation.

[JohnSSC]

Hmm. Interesting points, GP, but I think the degree of "heavy-handedness" is different here.

For example, pro wrestling for the most part has had the outcomes pre-determined. For example, several years ago the sport was determined by the state of New Jersey to be simply entertainment and therefore no longer regulated like boxing.

NASCAR has had a tradition of not so much favoritism, but throwing late cautions to bunch up the field and promote close finishes.

I don't see that degree of manipulation, if you will, in either OWRS or IRL.

[luke]

The race at Fontana was going to be close anyway, Ferandez nearly got TK before the cautions.