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Old 6 Sep 2018, 19:46 (Ref:3848540)   #251
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No you can’t, for certain, say that about Leclerc. Not unlikely though! And maybe you’d be thinking Kimi is only going to get worse?

I’d take the risk, because the rewards are potentially large. The risk of it being worse are smaller and at some point you’ve got to do something like this anyway.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 20:09 (Ref:3848544)   #252
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sure at some point something like this has to happen...i suppose in addition to being risk averse i am just looking at what could happen for 2019 only.

with these rules presumably in effect until 2021 at the earliest, Ferrari are no doubt also looking at this in terms of their 2020, 2021, etc. title bids.

if Kimi retires (along with Alonso) then Ham and Vettee will be the only WDC left on the grid (a few years ago we were at 6 or 7?).

in terms of experienced drivers (most races run) behind them is the Hulk, Perez, DanRic and Grosjean.

http://www.statsf1.com/en/statistiqu...gp/nombre.aspx

i guess i have to admit there is probably more than a fair bit of nostalgia in my wanting Kimi to have another season. plus he's awesome!
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 20:11 (Ref:3848545)   #253
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I’m not going to complain if Kimi stays. I like him.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 20:41 (Ref:3848551)   #254
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People say Kimi is delivering. I think he is and he isn’t. He has two jobs: beat Bottas and back up Vettel. He’s doing the first (just about), though one bad result or a good one for Valtteri could switch things around. But supporting Vettel? Monza showed not; when Vettel falters, Kimi isn’t quick enough to take points away from Hamilton. And does anyone really think that, if Seb slipped in the shower, Räikkönen would have the speed to mount a title challenge?

So can Leclerc do both these things? Maybe yes, maybe no. The key word there is “maybe”; it could be that he can. But there’s only so much analysis you can do. In the end, you have to suck it and see, take a risk if you’re ever to win big. So, I say give Leclerc a chance.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 21:01 (Ref:3848556)   #255
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I think the above post sums it up nicely. Kimi just isn’t quick enough to back up Vettel properly
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 21:28 (Ref:3848557)   #256
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I think the above post sums it up nicely. Kimi just isn’t quick enough to back up Vettel properly
Kimi has been no.2 ever since he returned to the team in place of Massa, who was ironically, the guy who generally had the upper hand (even if Kimi won the 07 title) in their battle up until his eye injury when the team appeared to be letting both drivers go for it.

Kimi was nowhere near Alonso as no.2 but has been much closer to Vettel in the same role.

I think that is more about the task/opportuniies he was given alongside each driver rather than a bad mark against his talent.

Some posters continue to bang the same drum about his lack of form and pace but when a driver is already restricted to a subordinate role, he ain't gonna be winning races very often.

In fact this could well apply to Vandoorne as well as Kimi!

When Kimi has been released to get on with it he has shown the pace, very rare they let him though. Silverstone was a cracking reminder of what he can do as was Monza.

Rubens was often considered average against Schu but when they gave him the strategy, he was right there which proved he was working for the team.

I think some of us perceive things differently. In F1 what seems the obvious is quite often not the case at all!!
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 21:40 (Ref:3848559)   #257
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Is he slower than Vettel because he’s number 2, or is he number 2 because he’s slower than Vettel?

At Monza it was great to see him up front, but for me his performance demonstrated that he isn’t number 1. In that situation I think Vettel would have won the race in the Ferrari. Kimi was, I’m afraid, too slow. Vettel would have not allowed Hamilton to be close enough to be able to put the pressure on. Of course Vettel messed up in a different way, but I reckon he would have had the lace to make Kimi’s position work.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 21:59 (Ref:3848562)   #258
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Tbh it probably doesn't matter whether he's quicker than Vettel or not. He's paid well to be the other driver and accepts begrudgingly that 9 times out of 10 he won't be allowed to race Vettel even if he was able to.

Maybe he has had a stay of execution because there was no suitable alternative. Maybe because they didn't want to disrupt Vettel.

Hard to say but it's probably somewhere along those lines?
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 22:21 (Ref:3848566)   #259
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I suppose, ultimately, there is no difference. You are right.

I just feel that the majority of times he’s just being beaten. That probably then leads to a natural leaning towards Vettel in the team. And then there are the times that he is actual asked to be behind Vettel. I think that is probably 70:20:10 (ish). The 10 isn’t the lead story or representative of the situation.

Monza was a good example of the situation for me. Vettel was removed from the situation. Any inherent favouritism towards Vettel meant getting behind Raikkonen in that situation! In what is considered the best race car he needed to get a few seconds gap to cover off Hamilton. He failed.

For me the narrative is that he isn’t up to being a number 1 not that he is employed to be a number 2.
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Old 6 Sep 2018, 23:20 (Ref:3848569)   #260
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I suppose, ultimately, there is no difference. You are right.

I just feel that the majority of times he’s just being beaten. That probably then leads to a natural leaning towards Vettel in the team. And then there are the times that he is actual asked to be behind Vettel. I think that is probably 70:20:10 (ish). The 10 isn’t the lead story or representative of the situation.

Monza was a good example of the situation for me. Vettel was removed from the situation. Any inherent favouritism towards Vettel meant getting behind Raikkonen in that situation! In what is considered the best race car he needed to get a few seconds gap to cover off Hamilton. He failed.

For me the narrative is that he isn’t up to being a number 1 not that he is employed to be a number 2.
Definitely. If Kimi was demonstrably faster than Vettel on a consistent basis - Ferrari would be more likely to throw their support behind him. He's number 2 because he's not quite on the level of Seb, not number 2 because Ferrari have pre-ordained this arrangement.

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I see your point. However, what’s to lose? Throw him in the deep end! Why not? If he’s good he’ll be fine. Also let him have a difficult year in a top car. That’s real experience.

Max was thrown into a good car pretty early. He’s acquitted himself well, because he’s a talent.

Was a top talent really ruined because they went too early? A decent, but not great, talent maybe, but a great one?
I guess it depends on whether Ferrari want the WDC or the WCC.
Don't get me wrong, Leclerc seems like he is going to be an elite talent.

However there will be moments, considering he is still young and learning, where he makes mistakes and will lose Ferrari points. Now should he do that in a Haas or Sauber, that's not too bad because the loss will be small if any, and you can put that down to learning experience.

Put him in a Ferrari, he's fighting in the top 4-6 consistently, he throws it off track and loses a podium place, valuable points, pressure intensifies.

I guess we'll only know once he's there, but I feel it would be beneficial for him to have another year in the middle of the grid as his apprenticeship.

Having said that, if I was a betting man, I'm putting my money on Ferrari getting him in for 2019.
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 07:36 (Ref:3848615)   #261
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I think Leclerc will be alright, if he makes mistakes it's to be expected, as long as he can show the speed that will make the errors more forgivable
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 08:23 (Ref:3848619)   #262
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I think Leclerc will be alright, if he makes mistakes it's to be expected, as long as he can show the speed that will make the errors more forgivable
Let us make a list of F1 neophytes who have made a success at Ferrari.

None? (Andretti possibly, but he was very experienced elsewhere.)

No reason Leclerc cannot be the first!
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 11:51 (Ref:3848659)   #263
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Villeneuve?
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 12:04 (Ref:3848661)   #264
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 12:32 (Ref:3848668)   #265
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davec should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Assuming that Kimi is replaced by Leclerc next year will this make it the youngest ever F1 grid.

Hamilton will be the "oldie" at only 33/34 with only 4 or 5 drivers over the age of 30.

Has this ever happened before? you normally get 1 or 2 that are late 30s and the grid made up of old hands and young guns.

Even the likes of Grosjean are looking on their last seasons potentially.
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 12:43 (Ref:3848670)   #266
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Red Bull say no to Ocon, due to Mercedes link.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/138558
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 15:50 (Ref:3848712)   #267
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i can understand the reasoning behind Horner's (and Abiteboul's) position on this, but on the other hand its a real shame that several seats are being denied to a talented driver because of their junior program/backing choices.

i suppose it has always been this way and probably this system is necessary, even crucial, to the development of young drivers, but cant shake the feeling that there is something inherently wrong about this system extending into the top level particularly when the issue is compounded by how few (competitive) seats there are in F1 to begin with.

i suppose it can be alleviated with a more formalized B squad approach to organizing the grid but even that has its downsides.
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 15:58 (Ref:3848715)   #268
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i can understand the reasoning behind Horner's (and Abiteboul's) position on this, but on the other hand its a real shame that several seats are being denied to a talented driver because of their junior program/backing choices.

i suppose it has always been this way and probably this system is necessary, even crucial, to the development of young drivers, but cant shake the feeling that there is something inherently wrong about this system extending into the top level particularly when the issue is compounded by how few (competitive) seats there are in F1 to begin with.

i suppose it can be alleviated with a more formalized B squad approach to organizing the grid but even that has its downsides.
It's a problem that has been seen in other fields where a quota system to recruitment / selection has been applied.
It assumes that the best talent in a field has been equally spread - in this case amongst the different driver programmes.
What if Team A has the best five (potential) drivers all in their junior programme? At best, only two of them will be in the car for a season, leaving the rest without a seat. Team A will be happy, because their rivals are now employing the 6th downwards in terms of talent - but is that fair for the 3rd best driver?


I'm not sure how, or even if, a change should be imposed - but I think we should still be aware of the fact that some of the best drivers are stove-piped out of a seat.
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 22:18 (Ref:3848777)   #269
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I do worry that young drivers, juniors, are becoming trophies that teams feel they should have. And it is inevitable that some of them won’t make it all the way. Does anyone really see Nyck de Vries in a McLaren in the next five years? Or Jack Aitken in a Renault? Yet we find ourselves in a situation where, conversely, Red Bull (alone in having two Formula 1 teams to play with) are scrabbling around for suitable, qualified drivers and instead are recycling their rejects.
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 22:20 (Ref:3848779)   #270
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STR are only doing it because no one they could use has a superlicence yet
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Old 7 Sep 2018, 23:01 (Ref:3848785)   #271
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Hawkwood should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridHawkwood should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Instead of re-using their rejects though they could easily pick up another driver (after all their are plenty who qualify for the super licence) who may end up surprising them.

Then again, F1 does has a 'better the devil you know' attitude.
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Old 8 Sep 2018, 00:35 (Ref:3848793)   #272
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I do worry that young drivers, juniors, are becoming trophies that teams feel they should have. And it is inevitable that some of them won’t make it all the way. Does anyone really see Nyck de Vries in a McLaren in the next five years? Or Jack Aitken in a Renault? Yet we find ourselves in a situation where, conversely, Red Bull (alone in having two Formula 1 teams to play with) are scrabbling around for suitable, qualified drivers and instead are recycling their rejects.
the good ones usually get signed up quickly so no-one else can sign them up themselves. the drivers often jump at the first offer in case it’s their last. the teams use the same tactic when other teams fall over - headhunt the staff, create jobs for them later.

with superlicences being tricky to get, it seems like the strategy is working.
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Old 8 Sep 2018, 03:12 (Ref:3848803)   #273
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Red Bull say no to Ocon, due to Mercedes link.

http://classic.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/138558
Third team say "no" to a talented driver due to his Benz affiliation. Could strengthen Williams position for 2019 if Mr Wolff is getting a little desperate to find a seat for Mr Ocon.

I do wonder though if the issue the 3 teams (so far) have had is the idea of having a driver from a rival team's stable in general or if the problem is more about the driver being from Mr Wolff's stable and a reflection on their views of dealing with him?
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Old 8 Sep 2018, 08:41 (Ref:3848825)   #274
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Williams is probably Ocon's best hope now. Be a big shame to lose him. He certainly more than deserves to stay in F1
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Old 8 Sep 2018, 14:10 (Ref:3848864)   #275
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I think it’s foolish of Red Bull to rule Ocon out. Yes, he’s contracted to Mercedes, but they could take him for a year or two while Ticktum (or A. N. Other) matures and let him collect points. I hope he can find a berth at Williams but his prospects are looking quite bleak, which is mad when you think that everyone agrees he’s a quality driver.
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