WTCC rules from 2009 - what do we think ?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Wait. I read on dtm.com forum 9 manufacturers are in talks about the new tech rules. A) I don't know if it's true 9 manufacturers are involved. And if these manufacturers are creating the new tech rules it's not certain they join WTCC. Late 90s BMW was involved in the "new" DTM but never joined the DTM. B) I don't know if these manufacturers agree with change to RWD.

Party pooper.

[bdwoody]

didnt ford look into doing a rwd escort a few years back but didnt like the idea for some reason probably cost ?

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by bdwoody

didnt ford look into doing a rwd escort a few years back but didnt like the idea for some reason probably cost ?

The Andy Rouse built ST Ford Mondeos for BTCC in the early 90s is probably what you are thinking of. They had the option of using both RWD and FWD but went with FWD for some reason, dont know really why tho. Renault and Vauxhall where both experimenting with RWD on their cars in 94, but never got very far with it as RWD with a transversed engine would eat up too much of the hp.

[Ellmau]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

Another good thing with this is that maybe some manufactrer, as a result of RWD regs, makes road going specials to honor succesful cars (as happend in WRC, and latest now Aston Martin for thier LeMans win), which makes it so much more fun for us that drives RWD cars on the road.

If that is the consequence, I say get rid of FWD right now

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by FIRE

Wait. I read on dtm.com forum 9 manufacturers are in talks about the new tech rules. A) I don't know if it's true 9 manufacturers are involved. And if these manufacturers are creating the new tech rules it's not certain they join WTCC. Late 90s BMW was involved in the "new" DTM but never joined the DTM. B) I don't know if these manufacturers agree with change to RWD.

[u]In talks[/i] is the key phrase here. The FIA's Touring Car Commission are having a brain-storming session and have asked for suitable proposals, the RWD scheme as reported in Autosport is only one of several options put forward. It doesn't mean that that it will actually happen.

Having manufacturers involved in discussions is a common practice, after all there's no point in developing a new set of rules if no one is interested in running them. A similar thing happened prior to the introduction of S2000.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

The Andy Rouse built ST Ford Mondeos for BTCC in the early 90s is probably what you are thinking of. They had the option of using both RWD and FWD but went with FWD for some reason, dont know really why tho. Renault and Vauxhall where both experimenting with RWD on their cars in 94, but never got very far with it as RWD with a transversed engine would eat up too much of the hp.

The problem was that the RWD race car was based on a 4WD road car and the power losses through the transmission never outweighed the RWD performance benefit.

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by redshoes

[u]In talks[/i] is the key phrase here. The FIA's Touring Car Commission are having a brain-storming session and have asked for suitable proposals, the RWD scheme as reported in Autosport is only one of several options put forward. It doesn't mean that that it will actually happen.

Having manufacturers involved in discussions is a common practice, after all there's no point in developing a new set of rules if no one is interested in running them. A similar thing happened prior to the introduction of S2000.

Yep

Did Autosport mention other proposals?

[redshoes]

Not in as much detail.
- freeing up suspension regs
- small capacity turbo engines
- 35mm intake / 29mm exhaust values

Last one on the list was likely to be a serious proposal for 2008, others were more longer-term

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by redshoes

- 35mm intake / 29mm exhaust values

Last one on the list was likely to be a serious proposal for 2008, others were more longer-term

So more power?

[redshoes]

As a secondary effect, I guess so. The main advantage would mean the removal of all current engine waivers.

[Speed-King]

Turbos would be a good idea, IMO.

[Fechna]

Sorry, but I think the RWD-option how it is discussed is just senseless bull****.

You have to make a decision:

You go the DTM, Nascar, V8 Star, etc. way with silhouette "prototypes" that look more or less like the original cars, but have rearwheel drive and stronger non-stock part engines.

+ better comparability
+ more manufacturers have the (theoretical) possibility to join with a competitive car
+ more spectacular cars (more power)

- cars look very quick kinda strange, like the DTM- spaceships and the old V8 Star- tanks (Germany)
- motorsport looses contact to the real cars on the marked you can drive on road
- spectacular cars doesn´t always mean better racing

Or you choose to have a homologation series that bases in bigger parts on the real cars build for the road.

+ a connection from the road to the racetrack, a sporty road car can make a better racecar
+ cars look real, and you actually see how times are changing in design

- worse comparability due to different concepts
- usually less power from the real 2l stock blocks
- some manufacturers haven´t got a fitting road car, or the car they use can´t be get competitive no matter how good they develop


So choose!
Whats the point of mixing it up in such a strange way?
There is only one manufacturer in the WTCC using RWD and all others should change? Thats so dumb. Some of the hottest seasons in British motorsport had no RWD cars at all (BTCC in the late ninetees). And after the pulling out of AWD Audi and BMW there were only manufacturers with FWD and they provided the best sport you can imagine.

The only thing I could understand in a way, if they would use the same standart AWD- system for all the cars (including BMW and Lexus) like in the S2000rally regulations.

[JMeissner]

FWD isn't really the thing for spectacular racing, something that WTCC needs, but RWD is.

Then we know that WTCC have a kind eye for BMW to put it mildly, and perhaps not that unsurprisingly since BMW are stable to focus on Touring Cars unlike some other makes that are involved in WTCC.

[Ellmau]

I must say I agree with Fechna. All FWD BTCC has provided brilliant motorsport. I haven't seen anything better from BMW for instance.

[Fechna]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

FWD isn't really the thing for spectacular racing, something that WTCC needs, but RWD is.

Then we know that WTCC have a kind eye for BMW to put it mildly, and perhaps not that unsurprisingly since BMW are stable to focus on Touring Cars unlike some other makes that are involved in WTCC.

Well, o.k. thats your opinion. But nobody can be interested in a BMW-only cup, and the other brands aren´t just fillers. And, BTW, the VW- Group, with Audi ST,
Audi Sweden and Seat is just as constantly present in the world of 2l touringcars the last 15 years as BMW.

And, referring to your first statment: Why? WTCC has much better racing than all RWD DTM at the moment and for the last 3 years. All FWD-BTCC was just brilliant.

IMO this whole RWD- fetish is more like a thing in your head, guys!
It would matter with 400- 600hp cars, but whats the point, if you have 280 (S2000) to 320hp (Supertouring) cars?

[JMeissner]

I'm not saying that I want a BMW cup. All that I say is that if the WTCC is to go one drive train only, RWD would be a good choise IMHO.

Perhaps its only in my eyes, but cars oversteering is sexier and better to watch than understeer and smoking the front wheels in the start.

But all in all I still think that WTCC is out on the wrong grounds, for sure, all cars with either FWD or RWD is better than today. But big changes are still needed, especially money wise. But where are the talks about introducing more standardized parts, the thing that WTCC really needs.

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by JMeissner

FWD isn't really the thing for spectacular racing, something that WTCC needs, but RWD is.

ST was mostly FWD and that could be pretty spectacular at time. For me it's more than just FWD vs RWD that makes a series.

All that I say is that if the WTCC is to go one drive train only, RWD would be a good choise IMHO.

Why does it NEED to be single drive train? I agree that after 5 years it's time to take another look at the rules but don't believe that's the right way to go.

[Woolley]

I thought the point of TC was to prove who had the best (fastest over a lap) car. I find it amusing that manufacturers build FWD which is inherently less efficient and then complain because someone else makes a proper car. If they really want a proper performance car, they could always build one and sell it.

[JMeissner]

It's true that, as I've said before in this thread, a single drive train is not the solution for WTCC.

But it is a fact that different drive trains are a problem when it comes to TC racing.

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Fechna

<snip>

I agree generally (power doesn't make exciting racing though.)

I thought the point of TC was to prove who had the best (fastest over a lap) car. I find it amusing that manufacturers build FWD which is inherently less efficient and then complain because someone else makes a proper car. If they really want a proper performance car, they could always build one and sell it.

So a car is only a proper car if it is RWD.

Please could we keep this RWD fetish away from touring cars. FWD only BTCC was good, the (mainly) FWD BTCC is good now.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Originally Posted by Fechna

All FWD-BTCC was just brilliant.

We all know that! Belive me.

But great times as those rarely comes around very often. You cant compare the ST days with the current situation and draw the conclusion: "FWD worked then, so then it should now!" Its not that simple! You could write an 50 pape essay about why ST was so enormously popular and successful when S2000 isnt!
Time has changed and you cant be sitting on your arse waiting for the same kind of regulations to work again as they did in the 90s, theres a reason why it died out... You need to move along and come up with new indeas and new rules that fits the current situation. As sad as it might be, we'll never again see the likes of ST, only chance to get anything close or even better is to go to new and unexploited areas, with new regulations and something extra to draw attension. S2000 needs to go, it hasnt beent eh success (especially in WTCC) that it should have been, so now we need something new, RWD is a good start!

[racer69]

Originally Posted by duke_toaster

So a car is only a proper car if it is RWD.

Please could we keep this RWD fetish away from touring cars. FWD only BTCC was good, the (mainly) FWD BTCC is good now.

In the timeline of the history of touring car racing, the front wheels drving the outright winning vehicles is quite a new thing. People just associate FWD with touring cars as the BTCC got popular during that time period.

This RWD fetish is well placed, RWD cars are FAR more exciting to watch, particularly when their power output exceeds the grip levels available. That was one of the failings of Super Touring, the cars had more grip than power, meaning they ran around on rails.

Needing touring cars to match their road going cousin's means nothing these days. World Rally Cars have nothing to do with the road-going cars they are based, so why should a touring car formula?




Or here's my idea to make everyone (especially me) happy. Make it a three-class structure, based on engine capacity. All cars run standard (bar some 'go faster' racing bits). Say a 0-2000cc class, 2001-3000cc class, and a 3000-6000cc class. We'll have cars matching their road-going cousins, RWD & FWD, and races throughout the whole field

[Fechna]

You say S2000 isn´t working.

I say: The BTCC has it´s best year since 1999.
I say: We have the first working WTCC for 3 years now and a revival of the ETCC for six years.
I say: There are 4 manufacturers in WTCC that win races.
I say: There was never a better STCC.
I say: The races are better then there ever were in modern DTM.

You say, RWD with more power will work better.

I say: DTM has 2 brands only.
I say: DTM- racing suck. On TV and live at ther track. my personal taste. No overtaking, no racing. When there is a race, I rather take a mandatory "pitstop" in front of my refridgerator with a beer and a pickle. I miss nothing.

That BTCC isn´t the same as in 1998, o.k. but one reason is, that there is a World Championship now. Another reason is, that nowadays only F1 and Nascar are working on a huge scale without crisis. Look at the sportscar grids or rally WC. The manufacturers aren´t burning money as they were ten years ago.

[ScotsBrutesFan]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

S2000 needs to go, it hasnt beent eh success (especially in WTCC) that it should have been, so now we need something new, RWD is a good start!

RWD isn't exactly new !

If you want new amd manufacturers involved, then you're looking towards small efficient engines ... such as turbo'ed petrol, diesel or Biofuel, hell why not a commitment to introduce Hybrid within a certain time frame.

The models the manufacturers are trying to push are getting smaller and are FWD, so perhaps the title of Touring cars is/has become a misnoma, but if a World Production based series or championship is to continue, we can't keep hankering back to Super Tourers, with big saloons. That's like looking at the rail network and suggesting steam engines would improve the service.

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by racer69

Or here's my idea to make everyone (especially me) happy. Make it a three-class structure, based on engine capacity. All cars run standard (bar some 'go faster' racing bits). Say a 0-2000cc class, 2001-3000cc class, and a 3000-6000cc class. We'll have cars matching their road-going cousins, RWD & FWD, and races throughout the whole field

While I like the idea of multi-class-racing, I think it only works in an endurance format. Now there's basically nothing wrong with endurance touring car races, but they are nearly un-mainstream-televisable. Even FIA-GT moves on to a 90 minute sprint format in 2009.