Safety in Historic Racing, time for a rethink?

[KMacB]

Originally Posted by davyboy

It was sad to see the photo of the Aurelia in last week's Autosport. Is it repairable ? If so, what's the bill likely to be ? Hope it can be got back out again... but either way, thankful that you're OK.

It is repairable, but at a huge cost. So I'll have to consider what to do. Or to put it another way, there are probably more 250GTO's racing, than there are Aurelia's....

[John Turner]

We've had 3 Aurelias out with us (FISCAR) over the last 3 years, although never more than two at one time, but yes, incredibly rare and a delight to see when they do appear. Shudder to think of the cost of repairing that.

[Nick Fleming]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

We saw from the dreadful accident at Hockenheim with an Elan what can happen when a roll cage in a fibreglass car is not attached to metal and the car rolls. Given how snug the cockpit is, I'm not sure I could actually get a HANS device on either - a full face helmet is almost impossible.

I don't wish to stop the momentum of this topic. However I just wish to point out a minor, but important mistake. My Dad was doing 125mph, he had a full face helmet on and the roll cage in the Elan WAS attached to the chassis. It's not just into the fibreglass.

My Dad died from multiple injuries but I belted him in. He was snug, helmet buckled. I have reviewed the crash many times but the bottom line is that the car was a historic road car set-up for racing. Not a carbon spec F1 tub.

From my own point of view I would be distraught if I thought that my Dad's accident was partly responsible for draconian safety measures applied to historic motorsport. In the same sense it would be irresponsible of me not to encourage a sensible discussion on potential improvements. But in my Dad's case, he was in an Elan, doing something he loved and was passionate about. He rolled at high speed and in this particular instance, I can't think of too many cars that would have provided a less heartbreaking outcome regardless of safety devices.

I just wished to politely correct a technical detail regarding the connection of the roll cage so please do not take this as anything other than that and an expression of my own opinion regarding historic racing. I have been, and continue to be immensely grateful for all the kindness and support I have had from the motor racing community as a whole. It is something I am very thankful for.

Best,
Nick

[john ruston]

Thanks Nick,

Let's hope people learn from the incidents but not totally change Historic Racing.

Your incite is way beyond anything 99.9 % of us have been involved with and hopefully ever will be and should be considered as a guide for those who would take the pastime into a cotton wool era.

Well done for posting and hope you can and want to continue with your motor racing experience.

[Tel 911S]

Originally Posted by Nick Fleming

I don't wish to stop the momentum of this topic. However I just wish to point out a minor, but important mistake. My Dad was doing 125mph, he had a full face helmet on and the roll cage in the Elan WAS attached to the chassis. It's not just into the fibreglass.

My Dad died from multiple injuries but I belted him in. He was snug, helmet buckled. I have reviewed the crash many times but the bottom line is that the car was a historic road car set-up for racing. Not a carbon spec F1 tub.

From my own point of view I would be distraught if I thought that my Dad's accident was partly responsible for draconian safety measures applied to historic motorsport. In the same sense it would be irresponsible of me not to encourage a sensible discussion on potential improvements. But in my Dad's case, he was in an Elan, doing something he loved and was passionate about. He rolled at high speed and in this particular instance, I can't think of too many cars that would have provided a less heartbreaking outcome regardless of safety devices.

I just wished to politely correct a technical detail regarding the connection of the roll cage so please do not take this as anything other than that and an expression of my own opinion regarding historic racing. I have been, and continue to be immensely grateful for all the kindness and support I have had from the motor racing community as a whole. It is something I am very thankful for.

Best,
Nick

Well said .
We all know that motorsport is dangerous and accidents can happen , but should not cause a knee -jerk reaction to enforce extra " safety " standards that might not make things better .

If you run into a something solid at 40 MPH , you are more likely to be killed in a tank than a modern ENCAP tested road car .
So it is a very difficult balance to try to get right .

[John Turner]

Brave, very constructive and informative post, thanks Nick.

[PeterMorley]

Particularly with early cars, where the driver tends to be more exposed, it might be more useful to look at Go-Kart safety devices (assuming there are such things?) .

Admittedly a car is rather heavier but there might be more similarities than with a modern car where the safety features work in conjunction with other devices/designs which are incompatible with old cars.

[zefarelly]

great post, and I think Johns reply is perfect, Thanks Nick.

[Mike Bell]

Agreed!

I'm sure there is a considerable number of fellow racers hoping to see your name on an entry list again, Nick.

[Rudernst]

I had the crash in the 1972 F1 March at Clearways at the Masters Meeting.

HANS is mandatory in Historic F1.
I have the supernew Stand 21 HANS, the one with the thin backplate that much better to wear and to fit into cars, it is also much more comfortable
Thats a big improvement over the old one.

I did strike the tire barrier sideways, not head on.
I am fine apart from a bruised knee and a sore thumb

the thumb is my mistake and unnecessary, I should let go of the steering wheel one metre before the tires, ingrained in me for the future but goes against all instincts until you programm yourself to do that

my head, my neck and my helmet are both in perfect shape
I am happy that I wore the HANS
allthough of course the outcome of my accident does not prove anything

the BH medic put it into his report that the HANS prevented damage....

i dont want to know the possible outcome of a head on version of my crash, was lucky

Rudolf

[MoMedic9019]

I've not fully read through this thread, just skimmed...

HANS is designed to protect from rotational, and head on impact overextension, or flexion of the neck. That can cause a basilar skull fracture, or displacement or transection of the spinal cord/canal at a high level..in turn that causes death.

As for rollover protection, compression of the vertebrae, can be just as bad if you get a burst fracture in any axis, Z-axis being the worst.

While I understand the need and or desire to continue racing these cars...at some point sanity needs to set in, and they need to be parked or, not raced in anger the way some want to....I speak of the Pre-war, no ROP types.

Post war cars should be heavily inspected, and rollover protection modified to ensure participant safety, same with belts and mandatory HANS.

[midgetman]

This is what some karters and moto-x drivers/riders wear

http://www.valhallaracing.com/products/360-plus-device

It would be fine in a car where the shoulders are unrestrained and the upper body in the airstream. Does it do the job? I don't know and as there are no tests beyond the FIA's FHR specifications I guess we will never know.

The downside I foresee is that it isn't flame retardant. Also, the rule that says "if a frontal head restraint is worn it must be FIA homologated" kind of makes it academic!

One person's reasoned decision on safety is often another's knee jerk reaction. Just because this is a dangerous sport doesn't mean to say we shouldn't discuss everything in our power to mitigate that danger. This is a very different world to when these cars were new.

[Podd37]

Interesting thread this. I have been away for some while, returning to historic racing this year in my 1973 Fiat 128 and the first issue I had was that my previuosly legal FIA roll cage had to be pulled out and altered to suit some new reg or other. Yet lining up for the race following me are a bunch of pre 55 cars, with no belts or cages or anything else for that matter. That on the face of it seems nuts , BUT....these lads know exactly what they are doing in the same way as the guys racing in the Isle of Man TT over the next fortnight know what they are at. Like any driver, we all operate on the 'it wont happen to me' theory. Who among you that race, worry for more than 10 seconds about the driver after you pass a shunt? We just get on with it. Dont get me wrong, i prefer to see a driver belted in with some roll over protection but its not always possible and if so and you choose to accept the risk, so be it. Do I wear a hans, no but it is my choice. Tried it and within the confines of my car found it very uncomfortable.
But before we go mandating (in the Hans case particularly) there are other areas that need looking at. Look at most Historic (and a good few modern) grids and look to see how many single seat drivers heads are level with or higher than the roll bar. It never ceases to amaze me as there is a reg covering this. Also, perhaps historic cars could be allowed some more roll cage than the current 6 point allowance of present? I would like to run out to the turrets to strengthen the front in a side or corner impact but I'm not supposed to as far as I know (my car is mostly FIA H1 but without the paperwork). I am not dead sure on this point but I do see that most HSCC/Goodwood etc saloons only seem to have a 6point cage. These cars are now much faster than in period so perhaps some give here? And i would definitely agree with a licencing system of some sort. Monaco Historic provided some of the worst examples of amateur driving I've ever seen, culminating in the race stopping pre 78 F1 race.

[john ruston]

I am sure the writer composed the entry about competing in Pre War cars for the best possible motives .

We who compete in the cars are aware of what we are doing and long may we be allowed to by the do gooders and powers that be poke their noses in.

Looking at the entry list for the next two major competitions think that most entrants are sane and with it so no need to worry about their sanity.

Leave people alone and let them do it their way.

We are not daft just drive crazy cars that have no roll over hoops, belts or any other safety features. The way they have been driven for the past 70 to 100 years

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by john ruston

I am sure the writer composed the entry about competing in Pre War cars for the best possible motives .

We who compete in the cars are aware of what we are doing and long may we be allowed to by the do gooders and powers that be poke their noses in.

Looking at the entry list for the next two major competitions think that most entrants are sane and with it so no need to worry about their sanity.

Leave people alone and let them do it their way.

We are not daft just drive crazy cars that have no roll over hoops, belts or any other safety features. The way they have been driven for the past 70 to 100 years

Well said!

[Al Weyman]

I invested in HANS this year, said I would when price came down and got a good package deal from JJC Race and Rally, Helmet, Posts and HANS £370.