Is it time to award the ATCC & Bathurst 1000 for TCR?

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Backagain

TCR has a long way to go before it can say it has cemented a future. It is by no means a settled class with drivers coming and going and cars failing to appear, reliability seems to be a big problem as well and we have not seen any endurance races yet.
This whole thread seems rather pointless based on baseless speculations and wishful thinking.

TCR cars compete in endurance races all the time around the world.

Besides, Questionable is a good thing for endurance races too

[Adam43]

Reopened after a polite request from a member

It’s on a short leash. No snide comments, bickering, patronising or dismissive posts. If you are just here to win a worthless argument about motorsport go away.

See the sticky here in Aussie: https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=150661
And have a read of the FAQ: https://tentenths.com/forum/faq.php?...ules_behaviour

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Well, Adam and I have had a chat. We'll see what happens.

Should TCR have ATCC status? I say "yes", and for many reasons. They all won't necessarily be stated today.

Last year's series was sufficiently substantial to do the title justice.

It's the 2nd biggest class in Australia already, and the highest level of authentic touring cars in Australia. Thanks to Umai Naa in the other thread, I'm now able to be more succinct than I was previously.

On of the biggest reasons why TCR hasn't got ATCC is double standards, favourable to the supercars entity. It's overwhelming

On the flipside, morally, supercars should be stripped of ATCC status. But unfortunately for betterment of Australian motorsport, it has to keep atcc status for reason other than contractual.

It underpins a small, but professional, industry. It actully would kill of a small industry of atcc status was taken off because they don't offer much. Supercars actually needs it (Even if series champions don't even know what it is) because it doesn't have much else to trade off.

If you isolated supercars from the rest of the atcc history, it's actually pretty ordinary. They're 5 litre V8s, but they're plain compared to previous eras.

For whatever popularity it boasts to have, they're actually not as popular as it seems. Most of you would remember the poll before it was deleted? That pretty much told the story of Australia motor racing better than what Gordan Lomas would.

The "yes, or inclined to" vote was split into two, the no vote was unbroken. Giving a false sense of huge popularity within Australia.

No, they're not that big a deal down here. It's why the entity is always trying to keep its head above water. Double standards is what allows it to have it though. It pretty much sticks out in every post against TCR/2litre cars (Even when it's not meant!).

And it's also the same problem in the DTM dilemma thread. Why is there no good solution to the DTM's problems? Huge double standards over there as well.

[Casper]

I don't think and I have said it before that either category has a long future in front of it for entirely different reasons which I have also outlined before. Enjoy either while you can because it won't last particularly in Australia. No one can tell the manufacturers what to make apart from legislators and they are all without exception moving away from the IC engine & four door sedans because of the legislation forcing them and also in the case of the sedan consumer preferences. If they don't make you can't race it...end of both categories so putting one in front of another seems rather pointless at this stage of the game but carry on.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Yes, I've noted your posts about both series and the impending infiltration of electric vehicles. It comes across to me with a certain doom and gloom.

While the future is uncertain, we haven't lived with the supposed benefit of electric vehicles. Gordon Murray was interviewed on the Motor Sport podcast recently, and he added some doubt on electric vehicles being practical (He's part of some motoring counsel in England, I think?)

Otherwise I'd say that until about 80% of motorists in Australia can drive freely with causing a nationwide blackout, then I wouldn't worry about it too much.

[Casper]

Doom and gloom or reality? You do realise that the category of car that is raced in TCR is rapidly being changed to hybrid/electric don't you, witness the latest Mk8 Golf for instance and VW's decision not to continue to develop IC engines. People in Oz need to study what is happening in Europe and the effect this will have on the cars we drive. Equally the US is simply removing them from the market place, you can't race what isn't made. Live in your dream world of the IC motor and 4 door cars because that is what it is fast becoming.

I have seen every Gordon Murray interview and while I admire his views the reality is that goverments are legislating IC motors out of existence and his or my views or even yours are irrelevant.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Casper

Doom and gloom or reality? .

It may be reality. But it comes across to me as "doom and gloom". While I acknowledge all the points you've made, we're yet to see the realities of electric vehicles being a part of everyday driving. It's a picture that's not clear to me, so I hesitate adjusting my opinion.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

It may be reality. But it comes across to me as "doom and gloom". While I acknowledge all the points you've made, we're yet to see the realities of electric vehicles being a part of everyday driving. It's a picture that's not clear to me, so I hesitate adjusting my opinion.

My outlook is different to yours because I have been a competitor for a lot of decades and suffered the financial problems of building motors that cost ludicrous amounts of money and drivelines that cost slightly less ludicrous amounts of money. I think electric has the potential to be the ultmate leveller in those areas leaving car set up and driver ability as the key components and return the "sport" into racing. Taking the stupidly expensive areas out such as the motor and driveline will make the sport more accessiblae on all fronts and years ago would have saved circuits now shut down because of noise.

How long can you see TCR surviving using an IC motor?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

It may be reality. But it comes across to me as "doom and gloom". While I acknowledge all the points you've made, we're yet to see the realities of electric vehicles being a part of everyday driving. It's a picture that's not clear to me, so I hesitate adjusting my opinion.

No, Australia has yet to see any significant take up of BEV's, Norway are about 50% and fast rising and significant areas of other countries are now applying methods such as punitive taxes to ensure the IC is removed from the world car fleet. Of course it won't happen overnight and in the world outside Europe won't happen for decades to come because it is simply impossible at this time.

We may not like it but the world of motoring is going to change and that means motor racing will change. Unfortunately I am not going to see it in my lifetime which I regret but it will happen and sticking our head in the sand will get you a mouth full and not much else. As for comparing SC and TCR it is like watching Lemmings jump off cliffs unfortunately. The one thing motor racing must avoid is using hybrids, that is financial disaster in the extreme.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Casper

sticking our head in the sand will get you a mouth full and not much else.

Hasn’t the Supercars organisation been doing exactly this for at least a decade?

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Casper

How long can you see TCR surviving using an IC motor?

In reference to your following comment.

Originally Posted by Casper

No, Australia has yet to see any significant take up of BEV's, Norway are about 50% and fast rising and significant areas of other countries are now applying methods such as punitive taxes to ensure the IC is removed from the world car fleet. Of course it won't happen overnight and in the world outside Europe won't happen for decades to come because it is simply impossible at this time.

TCR and/or 2litre cars can go for decades then.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

In reference to your following comment.


TCR and/or 2litre cars can go for decades then.

You are forgetting one thing, TCR will not be raced in Europe with an IC engine if the progression to hybrid/BEV continues at its present rate because the cars won't be made with just IC motors. How all this will fall out for the rest of the world no one knows. Go and read some of the legislation changes that have taken place and being proposed in Europe where TCR originated. You are living in dreamland if you think big changes for racing are less than a decade away.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Casper

Go and read some of the legislation changes that have taken place and being proposed in Europe where TCR originated. You are living in dreamland if you think big changes for racing are less than a decade away.

BTCC - Hybrid from 2022.
WRX - EVs competing from 2022.

I'm not suggesting that ICE will disappear from motorsport at the same rate as hybrid and EVs appear - but big changes are just a couple of years away in some regions.

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by Casper

Doom and gloom or reality? You do realise that the category of car that is raced in TCR is rapidly being changed to hybrid/electric don't you, witness the latest Mk8 Golf for instance and VW's decision not to continue to develop IC engines. People in Oz need to study what is happening in Europe and the effect this will have on the cars we drive. Equally the US is simply removing them from the market place, you can't race what isn't made. Live in your dream world of the IC motor and 4 door cars because that is what it is fast becoming.

This isn't true at all.

VW are not going to make any brand new engine families. Considering these often have 15 year lifespans, they will continue to develop the existing engines for quite some time.

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Last year's series was sufficiently substantial to do the title justice.

This is, quite literally, an actual joke.

We had half a season where the promoter owned basically 90% of the cars, and paid drivers to turn up and pretend they owned cars (Jason Bright, Kelly Racing), and paid other stars to come and race cars on behalf of manufacturers who loaned them to local agencies hoping to profit from them.

The racing at the front was on occasion spirited, but at other times it was an embarrassment. The Subarus should have been taken out the back and shot. Perhaps the Astras too.

It was not sport at all - it was 100% exhibition, paid for by BUSINESS TYPES. ARG showed us what half a season of TCR could look like, and they did a good job.

But to say this is more genuine than Supercars is ridiculous in the extreme. It simply does not pass the sniff test.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Mixer

This isn't true at all.

VW are not going to make any brand new engine families. Considering these often have 15 year lifespans, they will continue to develop the existing engines for quite some time.



This is, quite literally, an actual joke.

We had half a season where the promoter owned basically 90% of the cars, and paid drivers to turn up and pretend they owned cars (Jason Bright, Kelly Racing), and paid other stars to come and race cars on behalf of manufacturers who loaned them to local agencies hoping to profit from them.

The racing at the front was on occasion spirited, but at other times it was an embarrassment. The Subarus should have been taken out the back and shot. Perhaps the Astras too.

It was not sport at all - it was 100% exhibition, paid for by BUSINESS TYPES. ARG showed us what half a season of TCR could look like, and they did a good job.

But to say this is more genuine than Supercars is ridiculous in the extreme. It simply does not pass the sniff test.

And how long are they into the 15 year span of the EA888 motor? Develop is poor phrasing on my part and introducing is a far better way of saying it.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Mixer

We had half a season where the promoter owned basically 90% of the cars,

I'd appreciate anyone who's not upset at TCR being in Australia and generating any type of popularity to come up with the exact figures of ownership of the cars? Also what the ownership figures for the upcoming season?

Originally Posted by Mixer

and paid drivers to turn up and pretend they owned cars

Maybe, but fans don't care. Also it's another silly decision made by "business men" who've got more money than sense. It's unnecessary and a decision that can only be justified to themselves.

Originally Posted by Mixer

(Jason Bright, Kelly Racing), and paid other stars to come and race cars

More nonsense decisions that don't matter. You might blow out of proportion its significance, and it doesn't surprise me. .

It's also laughable because it wouldn't have mattered if they weren't racing. "Big names" like Tander, Van Gisbergen and Whincup have also raced in other categories in the Shannons Nationals, and few people knew or cared. Some of these "stars" are on the nose, like Bright is.

The presence of the Kelly's would even be a hinderance on the popularity of the class. I wouldn't even get them to run a HQ Holden for me, It was just a waste of money.

"Big names" are only what people who aren't interested in racing worry about. That's why there's a focus on them in TCR. Why you care? I don't know. Unless you're going to get Fernando Alonso or Daniel Ricciardo, there's not one fan that would've turned up to a TCR round last year because of guys like Tander and/or Ingall.

Originally Posted by Mixer

on behalf of manufacturers who loaned them to local agencies hoping to profit from them.

Well, that's kind of the point of making and selling a car.

Originally Posted by Mixer

The racing at the front was on occasion spirited, but at other times it was an embarrassment. The Subarus should have been taken out the back and shot. Perhaps the Astras too.

This is just the double standards that I was talking about.

You could list all the classes you like, and I'll be able to find numerous processions in amongst them.

Your opinion of the Subaru and Astra's are just that, your opinion of THEM. It's not an opinion of TCR. This kind of opinion is typical of a theatre goer. Those type of people worry about stuff that's not important.

Originally Posted by Mixer

It was not sport at all - it was 100% exhibition, paid for by BUSINESS TYPES. ARG showed us what half a season of TCR could look like, and they did a good job.

It wasn't an exhibition. The cars are legit (unlike supercars).

The "half a season" line is more double standards. When you look through a prism where supercars is best or a standard setter, then you tend to make comments that should be criticised for.

Half a season? Who says? You? How can I follow this up without getting into trouble???...Err, I'll say this with trepidation. But I'd encourage you to have a broader range of interest and understanding of motor racing.

For a domestic competition, 7 is acceptable. Personally, you could go as little as 6 (Which perhaps would be suitable for smaller countries) for a meaningful competition. It's not "half a season", that is your double standards kicking in.

For domestic competitions, 8-10 seem around the mark for a substantial series. You can have more, but that doesn't make it better. It just means that it has more.

Originally Posted by Mixer

But to say this is more genuine than Supercars is ridiculous in the extreme. It simply does not pass the sniff test.

They're not touring cars. They just slower, specialist racing machines. The organisation is all about attracting theatre goers, not car racing fans.

[sizzle]

Easy on the blood pressure Tiger. Had a few too many reds tonight.

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Also, the bit about ARG owing the cars and making a huge deal about it.

Regarding the size of the field and what was seen on tv last year. All ARG have done is wear the burden of the cost of CAMS being behind the ball for 4 years (As CAMS so often is, and Motorsport Australia is).

CAMS could've started the class 5 years ago, regardless of how small the field would've been, and they'd have had a similar sized field to what they had last year. They wouldn't have even needed ARG. So superficially, what you concern yourself with is not important.

If TCR in Aus doesn't work, it'll only be due to the short comings of MA and ARG. If it eventuates that ARG pull out because they can't make money out of it, then MA could run it with little fuss afterwards (Assuming they're competent).

I don't want to post in the Supercars Gen 3 thread the points I wanted to make as it's more relevant here. But I did have a small chuckle at your approval of TA2. It's just more double standards.

TA2 is inherently and amateur class. On average they run the same times as TCR. TA2 also have processional races, and it would be even more processional once supercar teams and drivers get a hold of them.

When I read Casper's posts, I wondering if he wants supercars to become amateur or stay professional?

Spec, parity, parity-ish, racing is also inherently amateur. Same engines, or anything else compromises professional, top level motor racing.

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

When I read Casper's posts, I wondering if he wants supercars to become amateur or stay professional?

You called? I find it hard to understand why YOU can't do some research on the current issues that car manufacturers are facing which in turn will decide TCR's future. you definitely have tunnel vision on the whole TCR thing, that much is evident to the most casual observer. Where is that Icon for flogging a dead horse? I like people who are tunnel visioned as they inevitably paint themselves into a corner with no way to retreat.

[Mixer]

Oh TCR are legit cars unlike Supercars.

Like the Renault with a Golf engine. Don't worry they have tested an actual Renault engine this year.

Or the Honda which offhand has only a crankshaft made by Honda.

TCR make up the rules as they see fit. These are bespoke Touring Cars. VAG and Hyundai played by the actual rules but then all the others that come after make up their own rules. The worst being Lynk and Co, which doesn't comply with the rules.

Hyundai threatened to leave over it.

VAG has left.

The remaining manufacturers want to increase the price cap.

Anybody who watches touring cars knows this is a familiar story.

Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

You can pick all the holes you want. Supercars are just large Aussie racing car. They're a caricature, it's just you can't tell from a distance.

Originally Posted by Casper

You called? I find it hard to understand why YOU can't do some research on the current issues that car manufacturers are facing which in turn will decide TCR's future. you definitely have tunnel vision on the whole TCR thing, that much is evident to the most casual observer. Where is that Icon for flogging a dead horse? I like people who are tunnel visioned as they inevitably paint themselves into a corner with no way to retreat.

"TCR" is different from "2 litre cars". The class is merely a rejuvenation of 2 litre cars which have been neglected (unnecessarily).

The anticipation of electric cars is not relevant now. Rules are always adjusted in car racing, and cars with 2 litre engines are no different.

Your suggestion for gen 3 to have standard engines goes against the notion of professional racing.

[S griffin]

TCR could have their own Bathurst 1000 like the Super Tourers did. I don’t see much wrong with that, might get quite a few international drivers joining

However V8 Supercars will still be king, even if there are signs of a bit of decline atm

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Your suggestion for gen 3 to have standard engines goes against the notion of professional racing.

People are talking about using crate motorsport motors. I don't really see the issue.

If you want to talk about control components being the opposite of professional racing. What is TCR then. Control everything....

And at least 6 manufacturers are running VW/Seat engines in them.

Most manufacturers other than Hyundai, VW, Audi, Seat, Subaru have an engine that is either basically the TCR "control" engine, or they have some munted creation that isn't related to any production engine made by the marque.

It's not good press but it makes for compelling and equal racing while reducing costs. So you can reduce costs while not changing the show.

So let me ask... Are you for it or against it?

[Casper]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

You can pick all the holes you want. Supercars are just large Aussie racing car. They're a caricature, it's just you can't tell from a distance.



"TCR" is different from "2 litre cars". The class is merely a rejuvenation of 2 litre cars which have been neglected (unnecessarily).

The anticipation of electric cars is not relevant now. Rules are always adjusted in car racing, and cars with 2 litre engines are no different.

Your suggestion for gen 3 to have standard engines goes against the notion of professional racing.

But have you researched what is happening and the path European manufacturers are being forced down by legislation? I doubt that you have because anyone who has would see where manufacturers are being forced to abandon IC engines as they don't want to face the huge penalties that they will incur if fleet emission targets are not meant. In fact not just European manufacturers but any manufacturer that wants to sell cars in Europe. I have no idea where the 2 litre reference came from or who it is aimed at. You are beating a dead horse but be my guest and continue to flog the poor beast. The class is not a bad one but it has a strict time limit on it which is very short and those that like it will have to acknowledge that time frame.

[chavez]

Let's venture into this alternative universe for the moment.

At the start of this year Motorsport Australia awards TCR Australia the ATCC title.

The COVID pandemic breaks out.

Supercars, by the start of September has managed to run a number of races and mapped a calendar that will see the conclusion of their championship at Bathurst in October.

TCR have held no races, with a very good chance that they will not hold any races at all this year.

That is the difference between a series with professional full time race teams and a series with part time team and drivers.

The ATCC should and must continue to be awarded to the most professional level tin top category in the country.