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Old 16 Jan 2018, 08:17 (Ref:3793050)   #351
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Originally Posted by leothedrummer View Post
Actually thought they were a bit cheaper than that. But anyway, forgot them for a minute. Part I'm actually interested in is realistically speaking, is there ac car that can be built at current Supercars pace for less money?
UNDER THE SKIN: MARC FORD FOCUS

suggest $230,000 a year ago, but adding GST would be that $250K Mark
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Old 16 Jan 2018, 09:07 (Ref:3793057)   #352
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MARC cars aren't that far off Supercar speed...and they are built for enduro racing.

I think Supercars aren't quick enough for what they cost in comparison to MARC cars.
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Old 16 Jan 2018, 09:15 (Ref:3793060)   #353
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MARC cars aren't that far off Supercar speed...and they are built for enduro racing.

I think Supercars aren't quick enough for what they cost in comparison to MARC cars.
Well truthfully not much is. a new ferrari GT3 is about 4seconds quicker (in enduro trim) and triple the price. much more expensive to run as well.

something to be said for the MARC formula. v8 hot hatches?
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Old 16 Jan 2018, 22:14 (Ref:3793201)   #354
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Well aware of the costs surrounding Class One and not at all saying that we should follow the Class One regs.

However I believe there is an awful lot that we could learn from the way Super GT conducts itself and that there is room for improvement if Supercars could follow some of the same themes and ideals as Super GT.
What can SC learn from SuperGT?
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Old 17 Jan 2018, 00:12 (Ref:3793220)   #355
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What can SC learn from SuperGT?
They already did - no huge aero or complex cars made from unobtainium in Supercars!
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Old 17 Jan 2018, 23:30 (Ref:3793446)   #356
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What can SC learn from SuperGT?
How to consistently put on entertaining races without resorting to things like convoluted fuel drops or "any excuse" safety cars.

I love Supercars to death but it's just so frustrating to see that some of the problems our series has don't exist in another. Remember the DJR XBOX car trying to climb through the field at Bathurst, only to be stuck behind backmarkers lapping more than 2 seconds a lap slower? Caruso at Queensland Raceway, just driving around behind Frosty for 20 laps, making just the one overtaking attempt, then falling off a cliff because that one single lunge destroyed his tyres? Townsville one year with Skaife working out you need to be at least 8 tenths a lap faster to overtake - on an equal footing, when do you ever see someone 8 tenths a lap faster?

I don't know if it's in the technical or sporting regs, if it's the tyres or the cars or what, but without an endurance race, rain or an abnormally high wearing circuit (that one year at Winton?), the current Supercars doesn't seem to put drivers in the position to properly be able to battle freely. If a driver is 5 seconds behind the leader with 10 laps to go, we all know that the race is a good as done - but it doesn't have to be like that.
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Old 18 Jan 2018, 18:21 (Ref:3793604)   #357
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How to consistently put on entertaining races without resorting to things like convoluted fuel drops or "any excuse" safety cars.
That is, however, despite their technical ruleset, not because of it.

DTM clearly shows that Class One has the potential to be dull as dishwater, but there are three things that it lacks compared to SGT, that explain why the latter is so much more exciting:

1. Multi-class racing
2. Open Tire Competition
3. Lack of large multi-car teams.

Now if we look at Supercars, #3 is already covered. #2 is hugely expensive and probably not sustainable (cf how even a theoretically open tire series like WEC has gravitated to an almost-monopoly for Michelin), so #1 is probably what Supercars should be looking at.
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Old 18 Jan 2018, 23:23 (Ref:3793679)   #358
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2. Open Tire Competition
Supercars should look at this.
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Old 18 Jan 2018, 23:27 (Ref:3793681)   #359
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Supercars should look at this.
you missed this bit from his post

#2 is hugely expensive and probably not sustainable
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Old 18 Jan 2018, 23:31 (Ref:3793682)   #360
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you missed this bit from his post

#2 is hugely expensive and probably not sustainable
It was sustainable for about 100 years of motor racing, until the parity word appeared to gather strength across the motor sport world in the late 1990's.

Killing off tyre competition also killed off sponsorship opportunities.
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Old 18 Jan 2018, 23:37 (Ref:3793683)   #361
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It was sustainable for about 100 years of motor racing, until the parity word appeared to gather strength across the motor sport world in the late 1990's.

Killing off tyre competition also killed off sponsorship opportunities.
But made the cost of tyres significantly cheaper. so for the have nots it was a massive win
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Old 18 Jan 2018, 23:44 (Ref:3793685)   #362
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But made the cost of tyres significantly cheaper. so for the have nots it was a massive win
At the time it was promoted as a massive win for parity.

Bridgestone did a better job than Yokohama and Dunlop and the teams and media, lead by WGR and Barry Sheene using his role as commentator as a convenient soap box, constantly complained about it.

The issue was about access to tyres not the cost.
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Old 18 Jan 2018, 23:53 (Ref:3793687)   #363
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At the time it was promoted as a massive win for parity.

Bridgestone did a better job than Yokohama and Dunlop and the teams and media, lead by WGR and Barry Sheene using his role as commentator as a convenient soap box, constantly complained about it.

The issue was about access to tyres not the cost.
Well if you say so, but my recollection is both were part of the equation
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Old 19 Jan 2018, 00:01 (Ref:3793689)   #364
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Well if you say so, but my recollection is both were part of the equation
Also now people complaining about how close the cars are together in time, with passing difficult, we had campaigners like John "mid corner understeer" Bowe campaigning for technical parity for years until we got it. Each of these decisions has implications

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Old 19 Jan 2018, 00:06 (Ref:3793690)   #365
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unrelated, interested in seeing how TA2 goes at bathurst and how it fits into this discussion
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Old 19 Jan 2018, 04:25 (Ref:3793722)   #366
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unrelated, interested in seeing how TA2 goes at bathurst and how it fits into this discussion
As posted previously TA2 would be significantly cheaper, but would such a class be acceptable as our premier class of motorsport?

I am not sure the paying public would object, but would the teams see it as too simple?
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Old 19 Jan 2018, 04:32 (Ref:3793724)   #367
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As posted previously TA2 would be significantly cheaper, but would such a class be acceptable as our premier class of motorsport?

I am not sure the paying public would object, but would the teams see it as too simple?
In my mind, its a bit slow and aimed, in its current format, at a different level of driver. However a higher spec level might be something worth considering
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Old 19 Jan 2018, 07:04 (Ref:3793731)   #368
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Supercars should look at this.
Agreed

We had 5 tyre brands investing in V8 racing in the mid-90s, and we threw four of them away in the name of "parity"

Different car brands are encouraged to participate against eachother in motor racing, it makes no sense tyre manufacturers (and various other 'control' items) are not allowed to compete against eachother these days.

At least WRC saw the light and ditched control tyres.
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Old 19 Jan 2018, 07:17 (Ref:3793736)   #369
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It was sustainable for about 100 years of motor racing, until the parity word appeared to gather strength across the motor sport world in the late 1990's.

Killing off tyre competition also killed off sponsorship opportunities.
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We had 5 tyre brands investing in V8 racing in the mid-90s, and we threw four of them away in the name of "parity"
The problem was if you didn't have Bridgestones you really weren't winning. Dunlop obviously won a little but if you were on Yokohama you were in trouble.
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Old 19 Jan 2018, 08:31 (Ref:3793751)   #370
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The problem was if you didn't have Bridgestones you really weren't winning. Dunlop obviously won a little but if you were on Yokohama you were in trouble.
Isn't that like saying these days if you don't have Ludo or Mark Dutton you aren't winning a lot?

Yokohama won the Championship in 1994, won Championship rounds in 1995 and in 1997, so they were still capable of building winning tyres. They did have a poor 1998 but they also had no leading teams running their tyres that year, and had no chance to fight back in 1999.
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Old 19 Jan 2018, 08:48 (Ref:3793754)   #371
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I don't see what good can come of opening the tyre rules up. It'll be just like the years gone by, when you had one or two teams who good the best compounds, etc, whilst the rest flying the flag for the brand, got the scraps.

The things that aren't yet controlled are still a blatant arms race between those that can afford it.
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Old 19 Jan 2018, 11:35 (Ref:3793792)   #372
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The good that comes from it is competition.
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Old 19 Jan 2018, 11:49 (Ref:3793793)   #373
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The good that comes from it is competition.
it reduces competition, thats why almost every mainstream car circuit racing series has got rid of it.

its costly and doesnt provide any significant benefit
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Old 19 Jan 2018, 11:55 (Ref:3793796)   #374
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The good that comes from it is competition.
By competition do you mean increasing the difference between the haves and the have nots? Because that is what it will bring.

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Old 19 Jan 2018, 12:08 (Ref:3793803)   #375
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By competition do you mean increasing the difference between the haves and the have nots? Because that is what it will bring.

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Where does that end though? Do we control the engines to prevent engine development and teams gaining an advantage?

Tyre competition adds an extra variable to the racing and also opens investment and sponsorship opportunities for teams and categories
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