Doug Nye's article "History - a given, not a gift".

[john ruston]

Back to Pre War stuff Rudolf

How do you explain Bentleys price explosion with very few raced,many fakes,double identifies,reduced acceptance in MM,etc,etc and other Pre War makes doing same thing ,both saloons and other types.

Think its just that people want very old usable cars .The 1905 stuff is different as you can't do much with it.Drive to pub takes for ever and mechanical nightmares.

The 50's competition cars prices were driven by the various series people could do with them but this has not effected price of saloons and stuff.They are still low.

Next moves will be 60's and 70's in competition sense but what about the rest of the old crocks.

Noted in the last few weeks and listening to various people the Historic Car Rally is again finding favour after a few years in doldrums.

[John Turner]

Good post, John! Bentleys are an absolute minefield. The image of someone driving to the pub in a veteran made me chuckle. Doubt you'd get breathalysed and if you did would probably be negative, since you'd probably only get one in before you had to start the journey home!

(PS - have sent you another e-mail!)

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Back to Pre War stuff Rudolf

How do you explain Bentleys price explosion with very few raced,many fakes,double identifies,reduced acceptance in MM,etc,etc and other Pre War makes doing same thing ,both saloons and other types.

Think its just that people want very old usable cars .The 1905 stuff is different as you can't do much with it.Drive to pub takes for ever and mechanical nightmares.

The 50's competition cars prices were driven by the various series people could do with them but this has not effected price of saloons and stuff.They are still low.

Next moves will be 60's and 70's in competition sense but what about the rest of the old crocks.

Noted in the last few weeks and listening to various people the Historic Car Rally is again finding favour after a few years in doldrums.

Very true.

The price of the older makes seems to be connected to the current popularity of those makes.

Bugatti prices have only recently increased (at least for the relatively few original cars), that price increase might be related to the success of the recent Audis with Bugatti badges.

Similarly Maseratis picked up when Fiat started pushing the brand following the introduction of the 3200GT.

Bentleys and Astons have presumably also increased with the revival in popularity of those names.

Ferraris (and possibly Porsches & Jaguars) have always been pretty popular hence the value of their old cars has always been relatively high.

There are plenty of other makers who produced good, successful cars but since those makes have disappeared they don't have the same popularity and consequent value (e.g. no one has bought Abba's Auto-Union which is an extremely rare, pretty original, seriously important car while plenty of people have spent similar or even more money on relatively common Ferraris etc.).

It is true that eligibility for particular events distorts values, Formula Juniors being a particularly good example, the fact you can race one just about any weekend of the year and the large number of competitive cars means they are as expensive as something like 70s F2 cars which are intrinsically much more expensive (more expensive engine, gearbox etc.) but have less races and slightly higher running costs.

Peter

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

Very true.

The price of the older makes seems to be connected to the current popularity of those makes.

Bugatti prices have only recently increased (at least for the relatively few original cars), that price increase might be related to the success of the recent Audis with Bugatti badges.

Similarly Maseratis picked up when Fiat started pushing the brand following the introduction of the 3200GT.

Bentleys and Astons have presumably also increased with the revival in popularity of those names.

Ferraris (and possibly Porsches & Jaguars) have always been pretty popular hence the value of their old cars has always been relatively high.

There are plenty of other makers who produced good, successful cars but since those makes have disappeared they don't have the same popularity and consequent value (e.g. no one has bought Abba's Auto-Union which is an extremely rare, pretty original, seriously important car while plenty of people have spent similar or even more money on relatively common Ferraris etc.).

It is true that eligibility for particular events distorts values, Formula Juniors being a particularly good example, the fact you can race one just about any weekend of the year and the large number of competitive cars means they are as expensive as something like 70s F2 cars which are intrinsically much more expensive (more expensive engine, gearbox etc.) but have less races and slightly higher running costs.

Peter

The Kogan Auto Union.....
now, thats a story
The car was withdrawn from the Paris sale after beeing very well publicised.
Reason given at the time was, that the exact identity of the car is unknown.
Kogan alienated some Germans who could and would have helped but wont anymore.
Startling that Audi themselves havent bought it either.
I have to admit that the numbers kicked around for that car look reasonable compared to a Testa Rossa, never looked at it that way, but yes, You have point....

And yes, beeing German, I was asked to consider it, and I did, tempting in a way...

This car is not really usable or at least very difficult to run.
That scares many people off.
But yes, in a way the ultimate collectors item.

Rudolf

[john ruston]

Rick Hall would be pleased to hear from you as notice it was on his Retromobile stand.

He needs a buyer!

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by Rudernst

The Kogan Auto Union.....
now, thats a story
The car was withdrawn from the Paris sale after beeing very well publicised.
Reason given at the time was, that the exact identity of the car is unknown.
Kogan alienated some Germans who could and would have helped but wont anymore.
Startling that Audi themselves havent bought it either.
I have to admit that the numbers kicked around for that car look reasonable compared to a Testa Rossa, never looked at it that way, but yes, You have point....

And yes, beeing German, I was asked to consider it, and I did, tempting in a way...

This car is not really usable or at least very difficult to run.
That scares many people off.
But yes, in a way the ultimate collectors item.

Rudolf

I'm glad someone agrees - hope you might still be tempted by it...

I think there are 3 'original' C-types?
Of the two that the Karssik's found I understand this is the better one (two superchargers?) and Audi were supposedly rather upset that they didn't get the better one, so when it was put up for auction they decided to query the claims about its identity.

But my point is the identity really doesn't matter in this case - it is almost impossible to buy another one and no one was doubting that it was an 'original' car. It is not possible to say I will wait until the one with a better history is up for sale, whereas with the Ferraris etc there is nearly always a better one somewhere.
For the price of a Testarossa you could in theory buy two of these - except it isn't possible to buy two of them (ok you could have last year when the Korean one was sold, but there are no others) whereas you can buy several Testarossas etc.

I know it would be a real pain to try and run it, but if you can afford to buy it you can afford to run it and it is hard to imagine anything much more exciting (except for a V-16 D-type!).
My problem would be if I could afford it I'd probably be more tempted to buy something like a Spitfire or Hurricane or a steam engine - the few things that I find even more exciting!

Peter

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Rick Hall would be pleased to hear from you as notice it was on his Retromobile stand.

He needs a buyer!

John

I did have a good look at it on their stand...

Unfortunately my piggy bank's been on a diet (somewhat more successful than my own!) - fancy lending me the money until I get my (next century's) pocket money!!

Peter
p.s. Not sure it needs a buyer - I'm sure Rick would love to find a buyer, but I understand the seller would barely notice the money!!

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by PeterMorley

John

I did have a good look at it on their stand...

Unfortunately my piggy bank's been on a diet (somewhat more successful than my own!) - fancy lending me the money until I get my (next century's) pocket money!!

Peter
p.s. Not sure it needs a buyer - I'm sure Rick would love to find a buyer, but I understand the seller would barely notice the money!!

That Auto Union has a bit of a chequered history.
Two cars turned up Russia in a pile of bits and were reassembled.
The bodies are new Roach/C&G items.
The Kogan car was first fitted with twin stage supercharging, now supposedly converted to single stage, cylinder heads supposed to by new.
Frame and engine block are original.
This really is a TNF topic..

Unique car and possibly cheaper than having a replica built.

In fact Audi assisted with the research but there are other Germans who have better archives and insight, collected long before the iron curtain was raised.
Remember, Auto Union was located in what later became East Germany. Audi is situated in Bavaria, what was West Germany. They started from scratch after the war, no archive, no collection, nothing, not even technical drawings. They measured up a RT 125 bike from dealer to start production.

I was offered some of the missing information and tempted by that, but honestly this is out of my league.

Rudolf

[R D P]

And running such a car would be quite a challenge - both technically and financially.
Remember, AUDI is wailing every time they have to roll their replicas around a racetrack. They must have sleepless nights, already, thinking about the Revival !

Ralf

[PeterMorley]

Originally Posted by R D P

And running such a car would be quite a challenge - both technically and financially.
Remember, AUDI is wailing every time they have to roll their replicas around a racetrack. They must have sleepless nights, already, thinking about the Revival !

Ralf

Presumably Audi will be running their new cars at the Revival, a lot less of a problem than hoping the original doesn't fail.
What is interesting is that there seem to be far less problems with the equivalent Mercedes, presumably Mercedes used better quality materials since they still seem to be using original engines?

I don't think they are so much more challenging than some other historic cars - special fuels, warming up spark plugs etc are used in other pre-war (and some post-war) cars and the more moden cars (especially cars with computers) require several people just to start them.

A V-12 Ferrari is probably a lot easier to live with, but what about a 16 cylinder BRM or some of the other really rare cars like the CTA-Arsenal that sometimes appear?

Peter

[R D P]

AUDI always excuses the "Show-Outings" with the high running costs and maintenance needed - and they (almost everytime) are talking about the replicas...

Of course, V-16s and the CTA are not the userfriendliest cars, but it shows during their (mostly short or slowish/slowing) outings !
But good, that there are people around willing to spend (big) money and (lots of) time to have thoes cars on track.

Ralf

[Rudernst]

Originally Posted by R D P

AUDI always excuses the "Show-Outings" with the high running costs and maintenance needed - and they (almost everytime) are talking about the replicas...

Of course, V-16s and the CTA are not the userfriendliest cars, but it shows during their (mostly short or slowish/slowing) outings !
But good, that there are people around willing to spend (big) money and (lots of) time to have thoes cars on track.

Ralf

I wonder how an Auto Union would fare today against an ERA with 60 years of development on them, hopeless probably

And probably a total nightmare to run.
You might use the original chassis, but best drop in a C&G engine and put the original on the shelf....
C&G will have probably re-engineered them to run on meth or similar when the original used to burn exotic highly toxic special brews, IG Farbens finest....

Rudolf

[R D P]

Yes - ERAs definitely will be in the hunt, or better vice versa.

C&G engines are running pure methanol, also their W125 replica.
MB, though, still uses the original brew - which is very distinctive, when you have the chance to smell it.
My Video is from Eifelrennen 2008, when MB placed the racer with us normal people in the old paddock. Unfortunately, nowadays they have their glitzi MB-Point up in the new one.
But still - imagine a whole bundle of those cars warming up !
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mZXaP...5&feature=plcp

Ralf