[WEC] BoP. Brilliant or Pants.

[rika]

You may think otherwise that is no problem.


But my opinion for me personal is that this season in Hyperclass was bad.




If I say before season Toyota will win everything and will win easy! Then everybody will say: No no no that is not true.


But I am only wrong in 1 of 7 races. Toyota has won everything else race.
And 4 times even 1-2 Toyota.


Even if they have problem, they really quick are back to the front as if no effort needed.




So for me this was not good season in Hypercars classes.




Hopeful next year will be better and every car can win races. Otherwise I think Hypercar class will be dead before we know it if car constructors also not happy they have no chance to win.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

Thanks for your understanding, I live in Argentina, a country that is on its way to 250% annual inflation, our currency is devalued day by day, on November 19 in the presidential election we are choosing between continuing with the same thieves as always or supporting Javier Milei and going towards freedom and being like you in a few decades, obviously I'm going for Milei!!!
That's why I distrust everything and I can't understand this BOP. The Toyota must be the heaviest and the least powerful.

Pero mi rey, el Toyota ya es el mas pesado!


BoP is not success ballast or penalizing for being better endurance racers, tire users and strategy managers. It's simply to balance the performance potential of the cars. It might not be spot on yet, but I don't think it's terrible at this point.


Should Peugeot be allowed more HP than the maximum power? Should they be able to run at below minimum weight? Should they try to make the Toyotas as slow as LMP2 cars?


Half the world was "oh Toyota can't win with real competition" and now its "Oh, Toyota has better BoP". I promise you, take away BoP, run all the cars at their minimum weight and max power with as much stint length as anyone can manage and Toyota would still wipe the floor with everyone on the grid. This is despite Ferrari producing a good car from off he drawing board that can almost certainly match the Toyotas in outright one lap pace.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by rika

You may think otherwise that is no problem.


But my opinion for me personal is that this season in Hyperclass was bad.


If I say before season Toyota will win everything and will win easy! Then everybody will say: No no no that is not true.


But I am only wrong in 1 of 7 races. Toyota has won everything else race.
And 4 times even 1-2 Toyota.


Even if they have problem, they really quick are back to the front as if no effort needed.




So for me this was not good season in Hypercars classes.




Hopeful next year will be better and every car can win races. Otherwise I think Hypercar class will be dead before we know it if car constructors also not happy they have no chance to win.

Providing they have the appropriate level of performance applied, I don’t see a problem with that, it’s then up to the other teams to improve and pick up their performance. If there has been an error and they have been allocated too much power or energy or whatever then that’s a different story, but essentially it should still be kinda a meritocracy.

Personally I thought the BOP change just before LeMans was bull ****, I don’t know what reason they had to penalise Toyota (except for helping Ferrari).

[chernaudi]

I almost want to bring up 2006 in the ALMS where there were constant race to race BOP changes in GT1 and LMP1, but almost nothing got done in LMP2 or GT2. GT2 provided excellent racing with minimal performance balancing changes. However, Intersport basically got shafted by comparison with Dyson in LMP1, when both where facing factory teams (Penske/Porsche in LMP2, Audi Sport in LMP1). Not to mention that the Porsche RS Spyder was a $1.5 million USD car in a class meant for privateers, and out-priced most LMP1 cars of the era.



And don't get me started on GT1. That could've been solved by Prodrive splurging on Michelin tires instead of the junk Pirelli offered them outside of LM (where AMR did run on Michelins).


And in LMP1, you do have to remember that Dyson struggled against a by then ages old Audi R8 that was running 2003 spec air restrictors and 35 kgs of ballast. What did they expect against the R10 that above all else was built to take advantage of the new ACO/IMSA aero and chassis regs, and a new to racing technology (diesel) that was just being explored?


But then even there we have a chicken vs egg scenario. Was Audi's advantage diesel, being the only fully OEM backed team in LMP1 at the time with huge experience and resources, or a combination of the two?


I agree that BOP should attempt to equalize potential, but should not try to neuter experience or skill. Where IMO it gets the rep as being "sports entertainment" is due to constant tinkering--especially unannounced--and especially nowadays where the cars are generally so reliable that people get the "rigged/fixed" taste in their mouths.


This of course isn't new and sanctioning bodies being involved in or accused of conspiracies of race fixing have been around forever, either to get a desired result, or for entertainment purposes. I'm not saying that that's what happened at LM or the WEC championship, since I'm not a big believer in such conspiracies without conclusive evidence. But I understand how some can have those feelings.

[kartman24]

Originally Posted by JoeW04

I thought at Le Mans the BOP was about right, everyone seemed to have a chance. At the other rounds not so good.

Agreed, everyone seemed to be in with a shout at Le Mans even Peugeot at times, all other circuits, great racing behind the Toyotas but they are just racing themselves out front. Something stinks to me, yes Toyota have several years experience but none of the other teams can maximise their potential at ANY of the circuits other than Le Mans? Sorry not buying it.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by kartman24

Something stinks to me, yes Toyota have several years experience but none of the other teams can maximise their potential at ANY of the circuits other than Le Mans? Sorry not buying it.

Good point.

[veeten]

That's because you can maximize the heck out of a car for 24 hours (Daytona, Le Mans), but in races of shorter time constraints, like 6-8 hours or even sprint races, you don't have that kind of luxury. You run what you have, out of the box, and make changes as you go. BoP may help, but it's still all on you.

As I have said before, LMDh just started racing this year overseas in WEC. It's previous varient, DPi, has been in service since '15-'16 in IMSA, so this season was a learning exercise, with Evo's coming next year it should be even closer, if not some surprising wins.

Give it time...

[Steve McQ]

Regarding the current BoP, please note that if the Ferrari is less powerful than the Toyota, it is also lighter. And please remember that at Le Mans tire warmers where back while the very first races of the season showed us a Ferrari 499P really struggling to perform on cold tires. More than a BoP push, the tire warmer "unban" was probably what Ferrari (and Peugeot somehow ?) needed to bring the challenge to Toyota.

The ability to turn on tires and not destroy them over a stint lenghth is what allows Toyota to outclass everyone at the moment. We'll see next year if other guys can make steps forward.

Regarding Peugeot slower this year than last year : political game inbound !

[Matador]

Originally Posted by Steve McQ

Regarding the current BoP, please note that if the Ferrari is less powerful than the Toyota, it is also lighter. And please remember that at Le Mans tire warmers where back while the very first races of the season showed us a Ferrari 499P really struggling to perform on cold tires. More than a BoP push, the tire warmer "unban" was probably what Ferrari (and Peugeot somehow ?) needed to bring the challenge to Toyota.

The ability to turn on tires and not destroy them over a stint lenghth is what allows Toyota to outclass everyone at the moment. We'll see next year if other guys can make steps forward.

Regarding Peugeot slower this year than last year : political game inbound !

Exactly this!

[veeten]

Seems like the two parties have given support for a simpler BoP, one that puts more onus on the manufacturers.
"If a competitor is expecting the BoP, because they made a bad choice or they don't perform, will bring everyone back, it is not possible. The BoP cannot solve all the problems; that is just a dream. " said Richard Mille.

Fillon added that the BoP "should not be an excuse when you don't win".

This is from the article on autosport.com/motorsport.com.

[Mike E]

I love this thread because if I don't read it I don't have to think about BoP

[chernaudi]

I think that the ACO/FIA should be as hands off as possible with BOP. They've capped things like max engine power, weight and aero, which are the three biggest expenditures that teams spend money on. It, I'd hope, would take things back to the days of the ALMS and LMS in the mid-2000s where you were given the rules and told to have at it within those rules.


Of course, enter the diesels in 2006 and Audi Sport already with the R8 years previously bringing in F1-levels (I'd actually argue beyond that to almost military grade/modern aviation grade QC, especially the engine end) of quality control, and you're dealing with an unknown.


Fortunately now, there's no diesels (since no one wants to run them and goad the ACO into accepting it), and with hybrids (and even if diesels were still around), everything now is also a known quantity.


All of that should make the ACO's job a lot easier, maybe to the point of not having to be as hands on with performance balancing. Also with a season of running and data of their own and from IMSA if desired, the ACO should have an easier time balancing the two Hypercar sub-platforms (LMH and LMDH/GTP), though even this year we've seen that different cars will perform differently based on stuff with weather and especially track characteristics.

[veeten]

I believe what Mille said was mainly directed at Peugeot, ByKolles, and Glickenhaus. But, mostly, it is for everyone that is, and wishes to, participate in this joint endeavor. BoP was created to give the best level of competition between the two platforms... not for penalty nor for favor.

[Sodemo]

I could add in how badly the FIA and SRO managed the WTCC and the SEAT TDi fiasco. It was quite obvious that the TDi had way too much torque but was slow like a brick in the corners, what (in my humble opinion) needed to happen was to reduce its available peak torque but also make the car a bit lighter. I *think* this was attempted at one of the rounds in 2008 (Pau?) SEAT were given a boost reduction but then had a poor qualifying, kicked off about the performance change then the boost was put back to what it was previous.

[Matador]

Originally Posted by veeten

I believe what Mille said was mainly directed at Peugeot, ByKolles, and Glickenhaus. But, mostly, it is for everyone that is, and wishes to, participate in this joint endeavor. BoP was created to give the best level of competition between the two platforms... not for penalty nor for favor.

As it should be.

[Gerard C]

Not sure about the year, Sodemo. Had quite a few discussions with Yvan back in the day (when he was SEAT works driver) and he said that Chevrolet people should have spent more time in development than in moaning and argueing with officials and other instances (yes, he went for Chevy later on…). I do remember the Pau-Ville '08 race, was there (invited by SEAT France).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IinQJYXFK6Q

[Simmi]

The BoP is not a pillow of laziness.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...r-bop-process/

Amazing quote from Richard Mille. Maybe we could change the thread title to Balance of Pillows?

[TF110]

As far as equality, EOT was a bit better imo. BUT back then there was the diesel vs petrol fiasco. Well now Audi is gone and so is diesel so there's no fuel to balance, we get bop and the new guys can't match Toyota. The oldest, heaviest car shows up every race and wins (except Le Mans). I think bop is hiding the real factor and that's something the aco's statement reflects.

[chernaudi]

EOT also featured (and IMO favored) out of control powerful hybrid systems that provided up to half a car's maximum power. That "go big or go home" mentality, plus no caps on aero or even in reality max engine power (allowances for up to 4.0 bar turbocharger boost and no real capacity limits) lead to the runaway costs.


Now the cars are much heavier (to favor less spending on lightweight construction), the cars have to run to a set aero window (firm approx downforce to drag and lift to drag limits), and engine power and hybrids have set power limits (670 and 270bhp--and when the hybrid is deployed the 670 or so BHP cap is still enforced). That all makes the ACO's job easier (or at least should).


Diesels were new in 2006 and hadn't been done by a factory before, and hybrids were new in 2012 when Audi and Toyota showed up with them. And again, no big factory had tried them before. And the whole EOT rules set wasn't done before prior to 2014--so there there were bound to be issues. Not to mention the ACO kissing up to factory teams until the ACO's own seeds of destruction (see first paragraph) lead to a near demise of LMP1 akin to IMSA GTP and Group C 20+ years earlier.


Of course, I've also pointed out many times with LMP900/675 and even LMP1/2 back prior to 2009 the ACO had a good thing going with rules stability. Trying to find the new hot thing every couple of years didn't help their cause, either.


IMO, current biggest issue is if LMDH/GTP being based on (provisionally) next gen LMP2 chassis vs LMH being pretty much able to be proprietary is an issue. We do have to look at say, the Audi R10 or even the R8 running against "off the shelf" Lolas and Courages. IMO in LMP900/LMP1 that was the single biggest advantage that Audi Sport had, was having their cars designed by them and built to their specs, vs making do with what you bought. Same with Porsche and later Acura in LMP2 (even though Acura did start out with off the shelf chassis).

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by Mike E

I love this thread because if I don't read it I don't have to think about BoP

I confess that I belong to this school of thought too.....

[RL17]

BOP may be pretty close on one lap qualifying and start of race performance.

But agree with above that Toyota have tyre west advantage over the rest on dry tracks when you get to second half of the races. Ferrari won LM because wet and SC periods meant everyone had ample dry tyres to race. More tyres please.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by RL17

BOP may be pretty close on one lap qualifying and start of race performance.

But agree with above that Toyota have tyre west advantage over the rest on dry tracks when you get to second half of the races. Ferrari won LM because wet and SC periods meant everyone had ample dry tyres to race. More tyres please.

There were times this year when I was wondering why we are being so restrictive on tire allotments. I know the series wants a lower environmental impact and all that, but is this just a way to make it harder for the teams and drivers? And does that in-turn lessen the on track product?

[RL17]

Think IMSA has relatively more tyres but just one dry compound and they warm up much quicker as don’t have to run so far.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by joeb

There were times this year when I was wondering why we are being so restrictive on tire allotments. I know the series wants a lower environmental impact and all that, but is this just a way to make it harder for the teams and drivers? And does that in-turn lessen the on track product?

Generally I like it. It feels more endurance racing.

Obviously in extreme conditions the restrictions can backfire, and equally just allowing infinite tyres can make it too easy.

But on balance I like it. Being able to double or triple stint tyres well should be a potential strategy. Or choosing to change only two or three.

I’d potentially tweak the rules so that changing tyres took even longer.

Would need to crunch some numbers to see whether this is reasonable, but I’d look at it.

[TF110]

The new teams need more time and development. Toyota is running the same car it's refined through the past 2 seasons. No one else has that. Peugeot is close but their car is not good. Ferrari, Porsche and Cadillac are going to be stronger next year so let's watch this space.