Can Sauber do it?

[D-bass]

Sauber closing in on competition

Sauber has been involved in sportscar championships "For 20 years and has been winning everything there is to win, but to win in Formula one is the ultimate goal," of the Sauber, F1 team.

Sauber has yet to win an F1 race since its maiden race in South Africa in 1993. This week's Canadian Grand Prix marks the team's 187th appearance in F1. Only Minardi has gone longer without a victory - 0-for-310 since its debut in 1985.

Sauber has never finished higher than third on the podium, has never earned a pole position in qualifying and has never finished better than fourth in the constructors' championship.

Through seven races this season, drivers Giancarlo Fisichella of Italy and Felipe Massa of Brazil have accumulated 10 points, putting the team fifth in the standings - five points ahead of former powerhouse McLaren- Mercedes.

Massa delivered the team's best result in 2004 by finishing fifth at last month's Grand Prix of Monaco.

But a wind of change is blowing at Sauber that could put the team among the front-runners as early as next year. That's when a new car - the C24 - emerges from the new, state-of-the-art wind tunnel at factory headquarters in Hinwil, near Zurich.
The $55-million (U.S.) wind tunnel is said to be the largest and most advanced in F1.

[Kicking-back]

Sauber to me gives off an image of "averageness".

They seem happy to be there, without ever really pushing forward in performance.

The team is no closer to the sharp-end now than it was at the tail end of 1995 with Frentzen.

And, IIRC, JJ Lehto qualified in the top six in the team#s first ever Grand Prix.

Sauber needs to get a works/manufacturer engine deal if it's to progress to the next level.

Good as a customer Ferrari is, it's still a big chunk of cash being paid out, and they're unlikely to make better use of the powerplant than the Scuderia themselves.

Sauber also would need a genuine top-rank driver to move forward - its best season came with its best ever line-up.

[dcp2685]

Originally posted by D-bass
Sauber closing in on competition

Sauber has been involved in sportscar championships "For 20 years and has been winning everything there is to win, but to win in Formula one is the ultimate goal," of the Sauber, F1 team.

Sauber has yet to win an F1 race since its maiden race in South Africa in 1993. This week's Canadian Grand Prix marks the team's 187th appearance in F1. Only Minardi has gone longer without a victory - 0-for-310 since its debut in 1985.

Sauber has never finished higher than third on the podium, has never earned a pole position in qualifying and has never finished better than fourth in the constructors' championship.

Through seven races this season, drivers Giancarlo Fisichella of Italy and Felipe Massa of Brazil have accumulated 10 points, putting the team fifth in the standings - five points ahead of former powerhouse McLaren- Mercedes.

Massa delivered the team's best result in 2004 by finishing fifth at last month's Grand Prix of Monaco.

But a wind of change is blowing at Sauber that could put the team among the front-runners as early as next year. That's when a new car - the C24 - emerges from the new, state-of-the-art wind tunnel at factory headquarters in Hinwil, near Zurich.
The $55-million (U.S.) wind tunnel is said to be the largest and most advanced in F1.

Didn't HHF finish 2nd in Indy last year in the midst of all the rain?

[dcp2685]

Guess not it was Kimi. Should have checked before.

[D-bass]

Originally posted by Kicking-back
Sauber to me gives off an image of "averageness".

They seem happy to be there, without ever really pushing forward in performance.

The team is no closer to the sharp-end now than it was at the tail end of 1995 with Frentzen.

And, IIRC, JJ Lehto qualified in the top six in the team#s first ever Grand Prix.

Sauber needs to get a works/manufacturer engine deal if it's to progress to the next level.

Good as a customer Ferrari is, it's still a big chunk of cash being paid out, and they're unlikely to make better use of the powerplant than the Scuderia themselves.

Sauber also would need a genuine top-rank driver to move forward - its best season came with its best ever line-up.

But if it's the same engine, why is there such a difference in performance between Sauber and Ferrari?

[twig]

I don't think it is the same engine, if it isnt the previous years engine, it is a tuned down current one.

Chassis and drivers, along with entire team techinical experience.

[Stephen Green]

Ferrari are unlikely to give their customers the same engine they run themselves, it would be self defeating especially as they are badged Petronas

[EERO]

The the first post in this thread reads more like a Press-Release than a BB post.

Frentzen had a third at Indy, the best result since Nick's podium in 2002.

Sauber's "averageness" is really just a factor of their not being aligned with a major mfr and being locted in a place remote from the Motorsports industries in Britain and Italy.

Supposedly, their engine is the same as the Ferrari's this season, but I would suspect that in might be a step or two behind in developement I'd be willing to guess that TGF enjoys a level a care in the assembly of his units that is lacking in the "B-Team" lumps shipped off to Hinwil.


If Sauber manages to survive, (which will be more difficult with the alleged shift of Red Bull money away from Sauber and into the Pussycats) the inevitable withdrawl of the majors from F1 will place them on equal footing with Willys, BAR, Jag and MacCaroon.

[MADDOG-99]

Q. Can Sauber do it?

A. No they can't, not based on previous performance anyway.

Maybe they'll get better but they have had that long to do it that it looks unlikely that they'll start beating the top teams outright...

[climb]

The partnership with Ferrari, if from on e hand gives them a great potential, from the other prevents them from becoming a leading team, since Ferrari would not permit

[Glen]

Originally posted by climb
The partnership with Ferrari, if from on e hand gives them a great potential, from the other prevents them from becoming a leading team, since Ferrari would not permit

How are Ferrari going to prevent it then? Take their engines away? Tell Bridgestone to give them the wrong tyres? Wild speculation.

Statements like this about Ferrari are practically universal, and usually phrased in such a way as to suggest that this is well-known cast-iron fact. Imagine what the arrangements between Ferrari and Sauber might be - but do at least admit that this is all imagined!

[Stephen Green]

Glen, I think Climb was saying (and I agree) that it seems improbable that Ferarri would allow Sauber to be in a position to regularly beat them. Rather like Jaguar (Ford)selling engines to Jordan really, they wouldn't want a customer beating the works team.

[Glen]

I know what he was saying - you have simply repeated it. My point is that it is fanciful, to say the least, to claim that. How exactly will Ferrari stop them?

The real answer, the conspiracy theory-free one, is that Sauber won't be beating Ferrari because they don't have anything like the resources, depth of organisation, quality of management, etc that would be needed to achieve that. Nothing whatsoever to do with Ferrari not letting them.

[BootsOntheSide]

While there are so many works teams invovled, Sauber have little hope of taking victories, even on a lucky day.

The Ferrari engines are probably a few steps behind,a dn the build quality might not be as rigorous - theyve had engine failures this season, and Ferrari never do, which says it all.

'Linking up with a manufacturer' hasn't happened much in the last couple of years - starting your own team or buying one out (after a period of working with them) has been the approach of most big companies - however, the tide may change. Sauber may indeed struggle for moeny if they lose out on Red Bull money, which would be a shame, as they are inherently a good team, capable of getting the best of what they've got and giving bigger teams a fright.

[Glen]

As has been claimed in the case of McLaren Mercedes, engine failures can be caused by a lot of things, not all of them engine! Cooling and aerodynamics, gearbox design, traction control... all of these things have a profound effect on the engine - I'm pretty sure that Sauber still take care of those items themselves (not certain about TC). Anyhow - even if the Ferrari build quality is different in the case of customer engines, I doubt that the motivation for that is making the customer team lose.

[Kicking-back]

I don't think anyone's suggesting a great consipiracy, Glen, but it's very rare in any form of motorsport that the works allow themselves to be beaten by customers.

[Bononi]

I always thought that Sauber should get rid of Ferrari's support in order to become a top team. But in the last years they have become a 2nd team in almost everything.

[climb]

Originally posted by Glen
I know what he was saying - you have simply repeated it. My point is that it is fanciful, to say the least, to claim that. How exactly will Ferrari stop them?

As Stephen rightly underlined, that's not a problem of a conspiracy; its about those non-written agreements but that everyones know.
Glen, Ferrari can do whatever they want to prevent Sauber from winning, considering that they provide the engine and most of the car.
Sauber will never know if the engines they receive are exactly the same used by MS.

And, at the end of the day, this is a very convincing explanation why there still is such a gap in performance between Ferrari and "their blue copies"

[Glen]

Originally posted by climb
As Stephen rightly underlined, that's not a problem of a conspiracy; its about those non-written agreements but that everyones know.

Precisely my point - everyone doesn't know - they imagine, they assume... but they don't know.

The performance gap is very simple to explain - it is a dollar gap. Sauber has less than half Ferrari's budget, and a large slice of that they blow on engines - that's a MUCH more convincing explanation. Ferrari do spend their 300+ million on something - being better and staying better. It's the last few per cent of performance that costs the most money - all those hundreds of refinements which are hard won through countless hours of testing. Sauber can never compete unless they do the same. They could have even more horsepower than Ferrari and still not finish on the same lap. Look at Toyota - reputedly the most bhp on the grid, and nowhere (yet!). Contrast that with Renault - still short of horsepower but very competitive.

[climb]

Glen we're simply on two different levels: that's obvious that there isno proof of such agreements, but none of us is talking about sueing Ferrari for that we're just making some guess, this is what fora are based on.

[Tim Northcutt]

Fogelhund:

Check your PMs or your e-mail concerning your "picks" in another Forum

[BSchneiderFan]

The fundamental problem is that, as customers, Sauber will only ever have, at best, the second best engines in the field, as their suppliers, Ferrari, will always be one step ahead. But if the new windtunnel comes good and the C24 is a brilliant chassis, maybe they can pick up a lucky win. I'd be surprised, though.

But if Jordan can win, why not Sauber?

[Inigo Montoya]

Contrary to what Kicking Back says, I think the Fisi Massa 1-2 is a great pairing. Its simply that they are behind in the development. I towards them for many more points now that the new bits from the wind tunnel are starting to make their way to the track.

[Kicking-back]

Originally posted by Inigo Montoya
Contrary to what Kicking Back says, I think the Fisi Massa 1-2 is a great pairing.

I thought you might

[Snrub]

Sauber's problem is that they don't try hard enough to get all those manufacturer engine deals that are floating around and just need to try harder with their chasis.

Teams don't just go from the back of the pack to the front. They've got one of the best engines. Best possible case scenerio, if they struck gold they could have 10hp more than Ferrari. They've got a way to go before that's the limiting factor. As others have said, it's money for design, pure and simple.