[WEC] Rebellion Racing

[Yuri G.]

RLM was talking about this mandatory difference in pace during the Test Day coverage.
As a quite inexperienced viewer I'm wondering about how ACO will determine the "Toyota pace".

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by Chiana

“We’re not allowed to be quicker than the Toyota,” Jani told Sportscar365. “Otherwise, we get a drive-through. It’s in the rules."
“As soon as we are too quick, we get a drive-through."

http://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/j...t-with-toyota/

Delightful tone indeed

RLM and some others are saying they might overtake Toyota on the first stint (before the pit stops hand the lead to Toyota as dictated by EoT), but I think they'll hold back because it'll be pointless risk + the above. They'll just have to wait behind if/when Toyotas explode somewhere along the line

I hope the Toyotas break down on the side of the road just like last year. Screw them.

[Badlands99]

Personally I am hoping for a last lap breakdown!

[GasperG]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

I hope the Toyotas break down on the side of the road just like last year. Screw them.

Did Toyota write the rules, how is this their fault?

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

I know that it's from SC365, but if that's true, it's crap. That's not what the ACO needs right now.

You have not been paying attention. Let me help.

The privateers get favorable EoT to get closer to Toyota.

I mean, if that's not clear by now I don't know what to tell you.

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by GasperG

Did Toyota write the rules, how is this their fault?

They hired Alonso and ACO wants an Alonso win on Sunday.

Rebellion is just there to make up the numbers.

[Adam43]

I’ve not noticed the drive through rule. Which one is it? I’d like to read the wording and check it’s a drive through not a stop go.

[Aysedasi]

Well, I think we may as well abandon the race now as all the experts are saying it's been fixed. Hell, why bother..... (Darn it, I'm sounding like Adam....).

[chernaudi]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

You have not been paying attention. Let me help.

The privateers get favorable EoT to get closer to Toyota.

I mean, if that's not clear by now I don't know what to tell you.

Let me explain this: In the diesel LMP1 regs, it wasn't written in the rules for Audi or Peugeot to be faster written in black and white in the rule book. Under the original hybrid regs, there was nothing written in black and white for Audi, Toyota or Porsche to be faster.

It was basically implied that they should be faster because they're factory efforts. Just like Audi was with the R8 in LMP900, as they were a factory effort, but again, nothing was printed in black and white that they had to be faster.

Now there's a rule written in the rules that Toyota have to be automatically faster, rather than have them be naturally faster due to being a factory effort.

So what if the ACO have given the private teams breaks to be closer to Toyota? Originally it seems that they were supposed to be on pace without an insurance in the rule book for Toyota to be granted a performance advantage.

This goes back to my soapbox comments in the LMP1 rules thread that if the ACO want to give Toyota an advantage, let them have their stint advantage and let everything else play out as it should.

If Toyota end up slower, it's their tough luck. If the privateers end up almost as fast as a factory team, either the ACO did a good job of BOP or got their sums wrong. If privateers naturally end up slower, then that's basically the natural order, like it or not.

[Aysedasi]

On a significantly less conspiratorial note - spot the Tenthers…...

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Now there's a rule written in the rules that Toyota have to be automatically faster, rather than have them be naturally faster due to being a factory effort.
.

No, once again, the rules are setup so that the privateers have a very distinct advantage over Toyota in almost every area. Even with those advantages they won't be as fast as Toyota, because Toyota are 'naturally' faster. Also, once again, the privateers can be penalized if they give the ACO false information that the EoT is based upon. Daygs does a good job of muddying the waters as much as possible as usual.

And it's not BoP.

[chernaudi]

Yet you have a driver going on record (irrespective of the site) saying that if they go as fast or faster than Toyota they can get penalized. However, that's the first that I've heard of it being a drive through or stop and go penalty. The penalty as I read it, at the officials' discretion, is a reduction of fuel allotment for the rest of the race.

Should Toyota be faster? Going by the Audi, Peugeot, Porsche, et al examples, yes, they should be. They're the one's with the $100 million program vs private teams with a fraction of that. But this is the first time ever that I've read in a rule book that a factory team should automatically be faster per rules, to the tune of .5 of a second around Le Mans.

Of course, how the ACO do intend to measure this is interesting, by basing it off the fastest 20 laps over a given period of time. Where the waters actually get muddy there is that the ACO will have to take into account track conditions (such as weather), FCYs, slow zones, pace car situations, etc.

No matter how you do split it, the ACO have an unenviable job, no matter how we may rip on them for seemingly sometimes saying one thing and either doing another or back tracking on it.

But then again, and I know that I'll catch flak for this, but even Daily Sports Car are guilty of sometimes using headlines to get clicks, like with the Fillion Hints at 2020/2024 regs. I didn't read anything there that I didn't read elsewhere, aside from Fillion taking a dig at Audi Sport and Porsche for bringing in high tech at a high cost--ironically what the ACO wanted them to do at the time.

And oddly, the ACO by 2020/21 want to get rid of EOT and basically replace it with BOP. But that's a discussion for another thread.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

No, once again, the rules are setup so that the privateers have a very distinct advantage over Toyota in almost every area. Even with those advantages they won't be as fast as Toyota, because Toyota are 'naturally' faster. Also, once again, the privateers can be penalized if they give the ACO false information that the EoT is based upon. Daygs does a good job of muddying the waters as much as possible as usual.

And it's not BoP.

People just need to read the regulations. It would be clear to them but a lot don't do that, then you have guys like Dagys and co. on top of race drivers who seemingly didn't read the rules either say things like they're "not allowed" to go faster than Toyota. They can try their best to do that, that's what the ACO wants. That way it's easier for the rules makers to set EOT so that they are close (within half a second) of Toyota. The wording doesn't say anything about not being allowed to come close or pass Toyota on track. These stories make it seem like that's the case. It's a rule written in to make the teams not sandbag. Because if they do and then they find some magical pace and say a Rebellion throws down a 3:12 at Le Mans, they've been playing the rule makers for fools. Toyota could go a lot faster than it is now but they've been slowed down for 3(?) years in a row. I think these guys will make a race out of it. I don't want to talk conspiracy but I think some in the media are trying to play down a Toyota win which is a big disservice to the series and it's runners.

[Juntos]

Originally Posted by TF110

I don't want to talk conspiracy but I think some in the media are trying to play down a Toyota win which is a big disservice to the series and it's runners.

Why would they do that in first place?



On all questions where his passions are strongly engaged, man prizes certitude and fears knowledge. Dispassionate inquiry is welcomed only when the result is indifferent. Everybody knows that Toyota will win on Sunday.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by Juntos

Why would they do that in first place?



On all questions where his passions are strongly engaged, man prizes certitude and fears knowledge. Dispassionate inquiry is welcomed only when the result is indifferent. Everybody knows that Toyota will win on Sunday.

Everybody expects them to win, no one knows if they will That's the beauty of the future, it's yet to take place.

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And oddly, the ACO by 2020/21 want to get rid of EOT and basically replace it with BOP.

That's not even close to determined yet.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

On a significantly less conspiratorial note - spot the Tenthers…...

I'm to distracted by those zebra blokes!

[Aysedasi]

We're in there...…

[Giba]

Can't believe that it is written in the rules that if the Rebellion is faster, they get a drive through. What happens if the conditions change and they have a set up more suited to those?

Even if the Rebellions are around 0.5 to 1 second a lap slower, they have a great chance to win as cars have won the race in the past with larger speed deficits

[S griffin]

Rebellion are the ones most likely to profit should Toyota trip up

[GasperG]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Yet you have a driver going on record (irrespective of the site) saying that if they go as fast or faster than Toyota they can get penalized. However, that's the first that I've heard of it being a drive through or stop and go penalty. The penalty as I read it, at the officials' discretion, is a reduction of fuel allotment for the rest of the race.

That was a really smart choice of words, nice PR stunt to make them look like the underdogs and favourites for the fans. But in reality they can not be quicker because they showed the performance in testing and they can not cheat and show more performance in race. Simple as that.

Privateers were given a very generous EOT brake, with those rules a manufacture effort would wipe out the competition. So it should be obvious that they can not be faster than Toyota, but I hope they will be on-pair and breathing down hard on Toyota neck, pushing them to "destruction"

[MaskedRacer]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Rebellion are the ones most likely to profit should Toyota trip up

Maybe so but I think the #11 BR1 Dallara of Button/Aleshin/Petrov will challenge the Rebellions for sure.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by MaskedRacer

Maybe so but I think the #11 BR1 Dallara of Button/Aleshin/Petrov will challenge the Rebellions for sure.

Yep, right up until that AER goes bang...

[Deleted]

Quite! AER will provide spectacular fireworks during the night, and for free of charge, that's for sure

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Quite! AER will provide spectacular fireworks during the night, and for free of charge, that's for sure

Beyond a likely AER fail, dallare solved a severe undercar aero issue with just a pair of winglets.... I expect something like this too: