How to fix F1?

[Richard C]

Recent history (~87 and newer) has shown that NA displacement kept being reduced to limit overall power. Generally speaking, bespoke NA F1 racing engines can produce quite a lot of power vs displacement. It would be quite easy to use modern knowledge/concepts to create quite powerful V8, V10 or V12 engines. Its mostly a question of displacement, RPM and requisite fuel and air flow.

Richard

[S griffin]

Since the previous generation of turbos were outlawed, the NA engines have been restricted, but have been still been pretty quick, despite the FIA’s best efforts. Of course the engine rules changed quite a bit, but it was still good and then we KERS and hybrids come in. Will we see NAs come back? I suppose it could happen and could work too

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

How about allowing new entrants provided they use crate engines from the main American manufacturers?

What, like these things?



Unfortunately American stock-block V8s don't sound right (and are impossibly heavy -- 195kg for a Coyote! over twice the weight of a F1 3.0 V10), flatplane V8s like a Ferrari or a good old Judd Zytek F3000 engine sound so much better. Of course the American stock-blocks are solid road car engines, especially for the price.

However, as V8 Supercars shows, as you soon as you take the $5000 stock-block and machine it extensively, fit roller-bearings, custom cams, custom pistons, dry-sump etc, that racing conversion process costs the best part of $150,000 anyway... Far more than the original cost of the stock engine block! You may as well have designed and built a proper racing engine with an optimised stressed-member block & gear-driven cams in the first place -- it would cost about the same, and be much lighter!

[Anyopenroad]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

What would be the level of power you hope for?

I love how you actually expect an answer from this particular poster. That's not how they operate. It's not possible to keep up a steady 50-100 post per day flow if distracted by actual conversation .

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

......... as V8 Supercars shows, as you soon as you take the $5000 stock-block and machine it extensively, fit roller-bearings, custom cams, custom pistons, dry-sump etc, that racing conversion process costs the best part of $150,000 anyway... Far more than the original cost of the stock engine block! You may as well have designed and built a proper racing engine with an optimised stressed-member block & gear-driven cams in the first place -- it would cost about the same, and be much lighter!

Interesting analogy, thanks. We see the same in Historics where a crate V8 engine comes in and machining etc. takes it up to £50 to 70k.

That said if your self designed stressed engine was only $150k then it makes sense to go that route as far as attracting teams would be concerned. Manufacturers would no doubt be put off though.

[P38 in workshop]

Post #1900 asks a question about V4 hybrids and i wouldn't be too surprised if they came to pass.After all,Porsche did quite well at Le Mans with just that configuration.I wouldn't mind if they were 1 litre as engines keep creeping up the efficiency range.I have seen the Fiat S76 at Goodwood a couple of times and while I find it truly spectacular,I don't suppose you would need anything like the 28 litres it's four cylinder had to arrive at the same power output with a modern engine. Like it or not,I am fairly sure that pure IC motorsports will be confined to historic and club level events before too many more years pass.

[S griffin]

Do we really need V4 hybrids? If V6 Hybrids didn't bring in the manufacturers, I'm not sure V4 would either. Most manufacturers have seen the WEC and LM as better places to showcase their tech, although sadly quite a few have pulled out in recent years.

It's clear to me F1 needs to think carefully where it goes next with it's engine regs. Too often people feel nostalgic to older racing cars and we need something to excite the current generation of fans. Besides I don't think IC engines are dead in the water yet and I'm sure they will always have a place in racing, especially as they are cheaper to build and run than hybrids. F1 needs to make sure it doesn't rely too much on manufacturers. They will always come and go when they please and I am sure they will be more attracted if it's cheaper anyways

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Anyopenroad

I love how you actually expect an answer from this particular poster. That's not how they operate. It's not possible to keep up a steady 50-100 post per day flow if distracted by actual conversation .

[chillibowl]

financial numbers being reported and FOM have reported a loss of 386m for 2020.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...aign=widget-22

no surprise really.

the budget cap, carry over the chassis and the looming engine freeze will help teams reduce costs but it might take years to recover after the pandemic so what will be the knock on effect?

going forward, how much can we rely on the manus to have the same interests as the sport, particularly as road car design and function moves towards automation and infotainment. so how will F1 hedge itself against that possible future?

the return of cheaper/older spec purpose built race engine could allow for independents to reenter the sport and without the manus being allowed to drive up the costs then those independents might have a chance to succeed. and thus be willing to stick around in case the big manus leave.

with a careful eye on how RB will manage the former Honda program but there decision (although i think it still may be a negotiation tactic) to go at it themselves may be indicative of a paradigm shift

we roughly equate the start of the manu era being 2000 onwards. with Honda, BMW and Toyota joining the grid and Mercs gradual build up to works status.

now with RB's new in house approach, Merc selling (part of) its stake, Mclaren back on the rise, niche auto brands returning, small teams winning races...the shift away from manus may have already begun.

older engines may be exactly what the covid doctor ordered!

[P38 in workshop]

That makes a good case for declaring Super Formula as the new top series.What happens when,or if,costs need to be further reduced?Do we see 500 person workforces reduced to 60 person teams with the people not needed over the winter laid off after the final race?It used to happen in the "good old days" of off the shelf engines.Motorsport generally has to adapt and even NASCAR is adding an auxiliary electric drive module.If the burning of hydrocarbons becomes too much of a toxic theme for the sponsors to support it only leaves the distribution from FOM as a source of income to be tapped.They did a bit of shuffling of assets last year if I remember correctly so that they had the latitude to raise a bit more capital.The possibility of doing it on a regular basis is rather remote.Its quite good fun for a bunch of enthusiasts to speculate based on their preferences it is quite another to put together a business plan that would support the employment of the existing workforce of Liberty and all the teams.If it fails you just move the spreadsheet to the recycle bin but somebody has to do the same thing for real.All the desires of hearing V8's or V12's won't actually put the money in the bank to pay the bills.A few years of racing a more electrically biased hybrid with a turbo V4 as a push to pass option might keep the money flowing.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Do we really need V4 hybrids?

In answer to the first part - do we really need any particular form of engine?

Originally Posted by S griffin

If V6 Hybrids didn't bring in the manufacturers, I'm not sure V4 would either. [...] F1 needs to make sure it doesn't rely too much on manufacturers.

And so we reach the point - if F1 is not reliant on manufacturers, why does the engine have to appeal to manufacturers?
Or to put it another way - why is a V4 (or I4) hybrid a bad choice?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Or to put it another way - why is a V4 (or I4) hybrid a bad choice?

Because it's not exciting.

The Polestar P1 has received a truly dismal market response. All you hear is that is that the Polestar is too expensive for a four-cylinder hybrid sportscar, that the vehicle is boring etc. Meanwhile, the archaic six-cylinder Porsche 718 GTS receives extremely high levels of hype and praise despite also having an extremely high price.

Do you really want to back the unsaleable hybrid cause? The market just cannot seem to appreciate the superiority of the Polestar over the Porsche, for whatever reason.

The Polestar receives comments like "you don't always get the electric power when you press the throttle, the four-cylinder sounds bad, yada yada yada"... As a hybrid, it's technical superiority is not appreciated in the sportscar market place.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Because it's not exciting.

What I'm not seeing yet in any argument is why a V6, V8, V10, V12 - hybrid or NA - would make F1 any more exciting than a V4 hybrid.

The poster I was asking the question of has stated:

'We can’t keep going with the current engines. They haven’t exactly bought in loads of manufacturers.'
'We hopefully won’t have the V6 hybrids anymore.'
'Hopefully the next [engines] will be more powerful.'
'I think we need to focus more on F1 power units.'
'Let's get back to F1 now and how to make cars fast and exciting'

But what I'm asking for is a reason why V4 engines are not able to produce exciting F1 races. To many, there is no such thing as an exciting engine in it's own right - the engine that is powering an exciting race is, at that point in time, the most exciting engine in the world.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

What I'm not seeing yet in any argument is why a V6, V8, V10, V12 - hybrid or NA - would make F1 any more exciting than a V4 hybrid.

I would say that perception is reality. That there is a part of F1 fandom that equates larger cylinder counts to some form of (for the lack of a better word) machismo. And that while performance counts, other factors also count as well.

Richard

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

To many, there is no such thing as an exciting engine in it's own right - the engine that is powering an exciting race is, at that point in time, the most exciting engine in the world.

Free practise (and single-car testing) also needs to be exciting to watch.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

What I'm not seeing yet in any argument is why a V6, V8, V10, V12 - hybrid or NA - would make F1 any more exciting than a V4 hybrid.

Hamilton seems more excited by the V10: https://youtu.be/_I0R5yZ80rA?t=50

I'm certainly more excited by the V10, and Tsunoda's running in the turbo hybrid [ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4j2AKA3v6Fs ], while an impressively large and forceful machine, just doesn't hold my interest. Man and machine on maximum attack, yet a minor interest.

Meanwhile, Webber's lap is captivating: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pKozog429jg A VERY exciting engine indeed, making the hills of Stavelot reverberate in the most thrilling of manners. Man and machine on maximum attack -- thrilling!

I think most (at least many) fans in the stands would be more excited by the unmuffled V10s than an unmuffled V6 or V4 or V-twin turbo hybrid. The 18,000rpm V10 is something you just don't find anywhere else but at a Formula One race meeting -- a truly special experience to justify the outrageously high ticket price.

Perhaps engineers and automakers would prefer the technical exercise of the 500cc V-twin turbo 300hp plus 700hp electric hybrid system on the other hand? It would be a better way to embrace the transition to electrification?

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

That there is a part of F1 fandom that equates larger cylinder counts to some form of (for the lack of a better word) machismo. And that while performance counts, other factors also count as well.

Not just F1 fandom but auto enthusiasts as well -- for the most part the same bunch.

Audi R8 V10 - great
Honda NSX V6 twin turbo hybrid with torque vectoring - minor interest

That's just how auto enthusiasts see it. You can try to explain the technical superiority of the NSX until you are blue in the face, but the auto enthusiasts will just drive straight past the Honda (or Acura) dealer and go to their local Audi dealer to put down an order on an R8 instead.


The auto enthusiasts, somehow, seems to have no interest in having the more efficient downsized turbo engine, and seems disinterested in having the battery packs and electric torque vectoring AWD system either. Perhaps they are luddites, but it seems when it is time to spend the money they would prefer 4 more cylinders, no turbochargers, no batteries and no electric motors.

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

there is no such thing as an exciting engine in it's own right

Rightly or wrongly, it would seem that the auto enthusiast views the Audi's V10 engine as "more exciting" than the NSX's V6 turbo hybrid even though there is apparently no such thing as an exciting engine...

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Not just F1 fandom but auto enthusiasts as well -- for the most part the same bunch.

I was just focusing on the F1 fan, but you are right. I agree with everything you wrote. And as much as I generally like technology, and am not a Luddite, I also am one of those would be would be much more interested in a NA flat six Cayman than their Turbo flat four. Even if the turbo four may have been a compelling engine.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Recent history (~87 and newer) has shown that NA displacement kept being reduced to limit overall power. Generally speaking, bespoke NA F1 racing engines can produce quite a lot of power vs displacement. It would be quite easy to use modern knowledge/concepts to create quite powerful V8, V10 or V12 engines. Its mostly a question of displacement, RPM and requisite fuel and air flow.

Richard

If you look at the BMW P85 producing 950 bhp at 19800 rpm, the biggest trick is the weight of 82 kg! Probably the most advanced engine ever produced because of the material use and casting technology.

P.S. Thank you for the links V8 Fireworks.

[Casper]

Have we fixed F1 yet or is it still broken?

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Casper

Have we fixed F1 yet or is it still broken?

The 2021 season hasn't started yet.

[Another Bob]

Definitely still broken Casper, but with budget cap and exciting 2022 regulations I think F1 is on the mend.


Note, I am a glass half full type of guy.



Whether F1 shoots itself in the foot and has a relapse or keeps getting healthier who knows.


I definitely think fans don't give a hoot about advanced technologies, they just want sound, load sound and the right sound, like the the engine sound that gives you goose bumps!!!


A BRM V16 among others comes to mind.



If F1 wants to seem clean, green and renewable then come up with a standard electrical storage and boast system that all teams use and is cost effective.


You know store all four wheels braking energy, then pump it out via the drive axle.


In today's day and age its not rocket science.



Also I cannot see today's fans accepting something like a hydrogen fuel cell F1 car. Not unless it crackles and burbles like a ICE V8-10-12-16.



I think Internal Combustion Engines are here for a while yet.


Rightly or wrongly that's what helps put bums on seats, and to a lesser extend eyes glues to screens.


If F1 want to be clean and green then it needs to be a ICE bolted in behind the driver, thats cost effective to produce, making a great sound and using a renewable carbon neutral fuel.



A fuel something like the fairies at the bottom of the garden would approve of.


Keeps everyone.....well, that's impossible, so lets go with most people happy.


Also, whilst we are at it. Racing cars need to move around and slide. You know, be a bit hard, or look like they are a bit hard to drive. Not like a Scalextrics.


So lets get rid of a heap of down force and leave a bit to mechanical grip and driver skill.


That's my two Bobs worth's in post 1921 in a thread that has been going for, well, forever.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

The 2021 season hasn't started yet.

Yes and we know the result already, we can just all ink in Sir Lewis' name in as the 2021 WDC.

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by wnut

Yes and we know the result already, we can just all ink in Sir Lewis' name in as the 2021 WDC.

I fear that might be the crux of the matter.We may have cause to revise that notion in a day or two if it becomes apparent that Honda have made enough of an effort to depart in a blaze of glory.It may also be possible that Ferrari have clawed back some of their deficit,but Mercedes won't have been sitting on their hands.My instincts tell me that the points table will be propped up by Haas;two novice drivers and a stated intention to do no development does make it look like a holding pattern in the hope a buyer pops up.Will the big changes for next year shuffle the pack?Will the next generation of engine make a difference?Will F1 even exist in five years?How about allowing solar panels on the bodywork to add to the energy sources?It might give the whole planet access to a more efficient technology and keep us mobile when the current (!) generating network is stretched beyond capacity by the disappearance of IC propelled vehicles.

[NaBUru38]

Thread bump


DRS was terrible in Imola. Cars in front can't defend. And once they are overtaken, they can't get the position back if the rival makes a 1 second gap.


I propose that each drivers should have once activation out of 5 laps (or 12 in a 60-lap race), and let them use it whenever they want.

[Aysedasi]

Personally, I'd do away with it completely....