[Multi 21] Sir Lewis

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

What leash? Prove it....your ‘filter’ is showing through once again.

Multiple times over the last few years we have seen both Mercedes drivers allowed to race, allowed to challenge each other in qualifying and sometimes Bottas comes out on top.

If Mercedes have him on a leash, they aren’t doing a very good job.

A leash is what Ferrari and Schumacher had over his teammates.....

Pardon my ignorance, but what 'filter' are you referring to please?

In a discussion it is logical that people of all levels of enthusiasm and knowledge will see things in varying ways?

I respect your opinion/s but to me you see things in black and white regarding Hamilton's status and worth. I see it differently, doesn't mean I am wrong because I don't follow the perceived wisdom?

I am not going to start scoffing at other's views or go crazy seeking contradictions just because someone disagrees with me.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by chunterer

I am not going to start scoffing at other's views or go crazy seeking contradictions just because someone disagrees with me.

You clearly have no idea how discussion forums function.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

You clearly have no idea how discussion forums function.

Oh drat!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

This is what you don't seem to get. The "same" doesn't mean "equal".


This is what I'm saying that MB is not Williams form the 80s. It's an outdated view. A there's a lot of knowledge MB have and its tailored to Hamilton. It like that in RB, and it's why you see such wide margins between their drivers.


Yes they do.

Same points for the manufacturer, but not the same PR points.

I'd be shocked because it'd be the first time it would've happened if it meant Bottas picked of a win against Hamilton.

So they have the same cars, same tyres, same strategy, same chance to win the race.....please enlighten me to how this isn’t equal

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Pardon my ignorance, but what 'filter' are you referring to please?

In a discussion it is logical that people of all levels of enthusiasm and knowledge will see things in varying ways?

I respect your opinion/s but to me you see things in black and white regarding Hamilton's status and worth. I see it differently, doesn't mean I am wrong because I don't follow the perceived wisdom?

I am not going to start scoffing at other's views or go crazy seeking contradictions just because someone disagrees with me.

I don’t see things black and white, I’m just asking you what leash? I respect other people’s views, and respect you have a different one to myself but at least back them up with some substance or proof.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

This is what you don't seem to get. The "same" doesn't mean "equal".

Part of me wants to walk away from this, on the basis should I really be bothered to reply. (Which I guess means I shouldn't.... .

Yes it means the same - probably. What the heck does 'equal' mean in this situation anyway?

Frankly I tire of my intelligence being questioned by the employment of pedantry. Generally the same car, same strategy and it's up to the drivers to get on and drive it. If the set up and strategy tends to be the one more favoured by a multiple WDC, then somehow I guess they're not going to fiddle around with it too much for his teammate who has had plenty of opportunity to prove his worth. There's a world of difference between that and a number 2 having his chances deliberately limited by his own team. It's how F1 works for the best drivers and it's been that way for a very long time.

[S griffin]

I don’t see Merc holding back Bottas. Lewis probably makes sure he has the right people around him, but no doubt Merc give both drivers equal opportunities to show what they can do. Valterri just needs to dig deeper, it would be so much better for everyone if he can give Lewis a proper run in the title run

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

So they have the same cars, same tyres, same strategy, same chance to win the race.....please enlighten me to how this isn’t equal

I'll try and explain how it might be:

Driver A is kind on their tyres, and can make them last twice as long for a 10% drop over a predicted lap time. If they stick to the predicted pace, the tyre life is 25 laps.
Driver B is capable of going 10% quicker than the predicted lap time and still getting 25 laps out of the tyres, but to make them last 50 laps, he needs to lap slower than 10% less.

Stick both drivers on a one stop strategy with hard tyres, Driver A is favoured.
Stick both drivers on a two stop with softer tyres, Driver B is favoured.

Same tyres, same strategy, but not equal.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

I'll try and explain how it might be:

Driver A is kind on their tyres, and can make them last twice as long for a 10% drop over a predicted lap time. If they stick to the predicted pace, the tyre life is 25 laps.
Driver B is capable of going 10% quicker than the predicted lap time and still getting 25 laps out of the tyres, but to make them last 50 laps, he needs to lap slower than 10% less.

Stick both drivers on a one stop strategy with hard tyres, Driver A is favoured.
Stick both drivers on a two stop with softer tyres, Driver B is favoured.

Same tyres, same strategy, but not equal.

But that logic completely forgets that for the most part there is an optimum 1 or 2 stop strategy for most circuits because of time lost in the pits etc

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

But that logic completely forgets that for the most part there is an optimum 1 or 2 stop strategy for most circuits because of time lost in the pits etc

There are always optimum strategies. But, if during a race one driver likes the feel of the tyres or conditions better than they did at the start, if the drivers were on 'equal' footing, they would be able to choose whether or not to change tyres. Not be told hard cheddar chap, you're staying out.

That doesn't appear to have been the case at Mercedes for some time. In fact i'm fairly sure there have been recent examples of when a driver who has requested a change and (actually needed it, let alone trying to pull a fast one on a teammate) has lost positions, let alone gained any.

History shows many examples of drivers being put on alternate (nee sub-optimal) strategies in the apparent aim of creating the best outcome for the team when it clearly is only the best for one driver. Why would they do that if they were not clearly favouring one driver?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chunterer

There are always optimum strategies. But, if during a race one driver likes the feel of the tyres or conditions better than they did at the start, if the drivers were on 'equal' footing, they would be able to choose whether or not to change tyres. Not be told hard cheddar chap, you're staying out.

That doesn't appear to have been the case at Mercedes for some time. In fact i'm fairly sure there have been recent examples of when a driver who has requested a change and (actually needed it, let alone trying to pull a fast one on a teammate) has lost positions, let alone gained any.

History shows many examples of drivers being put on alternate (nee sub-optimal) strategies in the apparent aim of creating the best outcome for the team when it clearly is only the best for one driver. Why would they do that if they were not clearly favouring one driver?

Well Bottas tried that this year in tuscany....asked to go on the opposite strategy to Lewis but couldn’t make his tyres last so had to pit first so lost the strategic advantage

Think Lewis is damned either way. People complain when they are on equal strategies, but if they put Bottas on an alternative strategy, people would still complain and say they were favouring Hamilton.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Think Lewis is damned either way. People complain when they are on equal strategies, but if they put Bottas on an alternative strategy, people would still complain and say they were favouring Hamilton.

Because Hamilton would still probably come out on top....

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Because Hamilton would still probably come out on top....

Most of the time he does, and would. But I think a lot of people would back off hassling Hamilton of the team didn't try and keep denying he was a contracted number one with priorities.

Allowing the drivers to make a change that suits them this season and by that I mean both of them so that they can achieve their best result possible (which after all benefits the team!) would go a long way.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Most of the time he does, and would. But I think a lot of people would back off hassling Hamilton of the team didn't try and keep denying he was a contracted number one with priorities.

Allowing the drivers to make a change that suits them this season and by that I mean both of them so that they can achieve their best result possible (which after all benefits the team!) would go a long way.

Do you have proof that he’s the contracted number 1 with priorities?

He’s never had that in his career against alonso, button, rosberg so what evidence do you have to back up your assertion?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Do you have proof that he’s the contracted number 1?

He’s never had that in his career against alonso, button, rosberg so what evidence do you have to back up your assertion?

Do you have proof that he isn't?

Of the 3 names you mention, only Button did not fall out with Hamilton spectacularly, and even then at times it got tetchy. I am sure this is why Hamilton doesn't fancy open season with a teammate within the team anymore.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Do you have proof that he isn't?

Of the 3 names you mention, only Button did not fall out with Hamilton spectacularly, and even then at times it got tetchy. I am sure this is why Hamilton doesn't fancy open season with a teammate within the team anymore.

I’m not the one making accusations....it’s up to you to prove he’s a contracted number 1....il wait....

[Peter Mallett]

I thought opinions were just that. You may disagree and you may come up with an alternative but demanding someone proves their opinion seems somewhat "Perry Mason".

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

I thought opinions were just that. You may disagree and you may come up with an alternative but demanding someone proves their opinion seems somewhat "Perry Mason".

Chunterer didn’t say it was his opinion though. He said Lewis was contracted number 1 with priorities....Im just asking for proof. If he’s so sure, it should be easy.

[Peter Mallett]

It was an assertion, nobody was "accused" of anything. Relax, take a chill pill and rebuff the post with a robust theory.

[Aysedasi]

There is no proof. He is the de facto #1 - because he's made himself so. He knows it. Mercedes know it. Bottas knows it. Everyone else knows it. Whether it was in his contract - or if he wants it in a new one - we don't know and probably won't until either he or Toto write their memoirs.....


Er.... IMO.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

It was an assertion, nobody was "accused" of anything. Relax, take a chill pill and rebuff the post with a robust theory.

Lol I’m perfectly chilled....and I’ve not said anyone was accused of anything. It would just be nice that if someone is so sure of something that they could back it up. In an age where fake news and BS is passed off as fact, some sort of substance would be nice when making an assertion

[Peter Mallett]

Ahem.

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I’m not the one making accusations....it’s up to you to prove he’s a contracted number 1....il wait....

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Ahem.

Lol my bad....fine.....I’m not the one making assertions. My point stands. If people are going to throw stuff about like this, at least back it up.

[Peter Mallett]

Sorry I just took a chill pull.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Unsurprisingly, I completely disagree. If Lewis went, Valteri would win a few races, Russell, I'll wager, would win more. Certainly enough to enable one of them to take the WDC and for Merc to easily retain the WCC. I'd say it was a perfect opportunity to have what is effectively 'one of their own' already in a situation where winning is likely to remain easy. Why do you think that Russell wouldn't have performed at Mugello or Imola?

I don’t think “one of their own” comes into it.Russell or Bottas are not close to Verstappen or Leclerc -or Ricciardo for that matter.It is a big risk to have an inferior driver and rely on your car to make up the difference.
Re Imola and Mugello I was referring to Russell in the Williams and the mistakes he made under pressure when finally in a points scoring position.I can see how hot you are for Russell but on most of the evidence of the past 2 years I would take Lando Norris ahead of him if you want the Young Brit thing.