overtaking?

[shugruah]

Overtaking. Is that the only reason why you watch a race? Many of you say that the big problem in f1 nowadays is that is very hard to see overtaking take place and thats why some races are so boring.

Of course that I yell GOOOOAL!!! when someone passes 2 shumachers ( lapping one of them) over the grass, but personally the thing i enjoy most in a f1 race is pit-stop strategy.

I love to see raikonen starting in 15th and after the first visit to the pit hes already in 3th or 4th (I must say that whenever i hear raikonen gets a 10places penalty I know I gonna enjoy that race). Last years mclarens strategy was great and almost compensated the f****** motor failures.....

Seeing a pilot`s effort to get his 25sec. margin to come out in 1st, or seeing a pilot with a strategy of 2stops when everybody have to stop3times e tries not to loose more than 25sec, when a pilot starts the race with more fuel and everybody have already made their pit-stops and his still on the track lap after lap getting more sec. from the guy in the 2nd place, and no one knows when his going to stop, and then he has success and get out in 1st but his tyres are much colder than the others and he gots a heavier and have to look at other pilots that are putting pressure on him with faster cars than him......!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Or when jean todt is smarter and faster than ron dennis to change the team strategy...
Like in Sylverton 2 or 3years ago, when the track went wet, and then when the rain stopped and the surface was getting dry, shumacher enters the pit to change to intermed and coulthard is still getting his wet tyres!!!!lolol

thats the kind of things i like to see in a race...
JPM also loves and gets very excited with pit stops and margins and almost being in front of alonso without crashing into the wall... ( last year in canada )

And when passing in f1 is getting more and more difficult, the race strategy is becoming very important...

Many races have mclaren lost over the years to MS, not only because hes a good driver, but also because ron dennys sucks!!! imho

I`d like to know if I`m the only one that gets excited with this things and dont care that much for overtaking...

[Kempi]

I'd rather see a pass on the track than in the pits, but I don't want it inflationary like in oval racing.

[rustyfan]

Part of the problem is often how the TV broadcasts are produced - if the producer on site was more alert and made sure to pick up on battles further down the field the product as a whole would be get more interesting on TV.

I mean, I'd rather see a spirited battle for fifth than following the leaders four seconds apart for twenty laps.

But perhaps that's just me.

[Pingguest]

Altough pitstop strategies might be an interesting part of Formula 1, I think we should get rid of it. Before 1994 there were some pitstop strategies, but it didn't dominate the race. And these strategies were also mainly choosen by the driver, because he decided whether to do a tyre change and, if so, how many and when.

I'm glad to see the tyre changes return, but I really think refuelling should be banned. It produced great racing in between 1984 and 1993.

[safc_fan89]

The only issue regarding overtaking that I'm not happy about is that if a car is faster than the one in front and right up behind, they rarely overtake. Whether that's totally because of the dirty air from the car in front I'm not sure. It's more likely the pitstops that make the lack of overtaking more noticeable.

I enjoy watching drivers battle for position, rather than just following each other round. Fuel strategy is an intriguing aspect at times, but that's not why I watch. I want to see racing.

[ASCII Man]

Personally I find pitstop strategies to be as exciting as a game of backgammon...
Get rid of refuelling, bring in slick tyres and a wider track and maybe then things would liven up a bit.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

Whether that's totally because of the dirty air from the car in front I'm not sure.

Modern racing aerodynamics is a huge factor in that. And it's not just in Formula 1 - Champ Car has the same problem and even NASCAR have severe problems with "aero push", due to dirty air, at some tracks.

[GeeRam]

Originally Posted by ASCII Man

Personally I find pitstop strategies to be as exciting as a game of backgammon...
Get rid of refuelling, bring in slick tyres and a wider track and maybe then things would liven up a bit.

Here..here.....

And just as importantly, get rid of some of the repulsive boring overly sanitised circuit layouts that now seem to proliferate....

[Julio]

Originally Posted by shugruah

Of course that I yell GOOOOAL!!! when someone passes 2 shumachers ( lapping one of them) over the grass, but personally the thing i enjoy most in a f1 race is pit-stop strategy.

Seriously? I find the all the pitstop strategy business frustrating. How annoying is when a car follows another round for laps but not try to overtake, just wait for the pit stops then pass then.

I hate it when a driver makes up loads of places from a lowly grid position by passing in the pits, but not on track.

Overtaking IS racing. Thats why I've become frustrated with the sport over the last couple of years. Don't ask me what the solution is though!

[safc_fan89]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

Modern racing aerodynamics is a huge factor in that. And it's not just in Formula 1 - Champ Car has the same problem and even NASCAR have severe problems with "aero push", due to dirty air, at some tracks.

The reason I referred to that point was because of the Japanese race. Raikkonen and Alonso had no problem overtaking cars when they needed to, yet at other tracks that have slow corners followed by long straights cars that were much faster than others weren't overtaking.

I understand that dirty air is a huge problem in F1, but that problem won't be solved unless something drastic is done, and I don't think the CDG wing (or whatever it is called) will make it that much better.

[krt917]

Originally Posted by Pingguest

Altough pitstop strategies might be an interesting part of Formula 1, I think we should get rid of it. Before 1994 there were some pitstop strategies, but it didn't dominate the race. And these strategies were also mainly chosen by the driver, because he decided whether to do a tyre change and, if so, how many and when.

Originally Posted by safc_fan89

The only issue regarding overtaking that I'm not happy about is that if a car is faster than the one in front and right up behind, they rarely overtake.

I enjoy watching drivers battle for position, rather than just following each other round. Fuel strategy is an intriguing aspect at times, but that's not why I watch. I want to see racing.

I agree with these points.

I would get rid of fuel stops altogether, for a number of reasons. One of the main reasons is that it often makes it difficult to assess the relative abilities of a car/driver combination at any given moment. Some might like that intrigue, but I just want to see them all start on the same amount of fuel and just get on with it - best combination wins.

Another argument for banning ban fuel stops is that it discourages overtaking. And, yes, I do think that overtaking and wheel-to-wheel racing is important. It is part of the essence of the sport. I much preferred the charges of Alonso and Kimi through the pack at Suzuka than Kimi's at, say, Silverstone because they had to overtake cars on the track. There are a lot of drivers who can drive a car quickly when they have clear road, but not so many who can really cut through a pack on track.

I do, however, hate artificial levellers, such as weight penalties for successful cars. If there is wheel-to-wheel action, it should be be a genuine fight.

[safc_fan89]

Originally Posted by GeeRam

Here..here.....

And just as importantly, get rid of some of the repulsive boring overly sanitised circuit layouts that now seem to proliferate....

Some of the blander tracks actually have the potential to host good races because of their layout. Bahrain especially. Awful track but you can overtake there. The bland tracks where overtaking would be impossible even if changes are made to reduce the effect of dirty air are the ones that should go. Hungaroring comes to mind.

[Mygale]

[QUOTE=krt917]I agree with these points.

I would get rid of fuel stops altogether, for a number of reasons. One of the main reasons is that it often makes it difficult to assess the relative abilities of a car/driver combination at any given moment. Some might like that intrigue, but I just want to see them all start on the same amount of fuel and just get on with it - best combination wins.

QUOTE]

i agree with that , nice to have no false surprises .

[Lotusonpole]

I watch F1 for many reasons but Pit stop strategy is not one of them I'm afraid.

In my perfect world there would be close racing with loads of passing "on-track" with much more interesting cars...i.e. not all looking quite the same. Which means, I suppose, more technical freedom for the designers to explore, including bodywork and engine specs etc. Safety issues would still be paramount.
Even if power rates were controlled by a standard Fisa issued management chip for all engines no matter how many cylinders or configuration.

No... there isn't any pit stop strategy in there....lol.

Cheers
Peter

[Lotusonpole]

Second wind...
Just made a pit stop...
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but pit-stops were introduced, I think, to help break up processional racing and add more spectacle...???
There were other reasons but this seems to stick in my mind....you should see the state of it...

Also some argue that many years ago races had passing in abundance. This is only partly true. The chance of having an exciting race with much passing was far greater than today but there were still processional races occasionally.

Cheers
Peter

[safc_fan89]

Occasionally is better than often! Overtaking in abundance isn't what I want to see, I'd like to see cars being able to overtake the one in front if they are faster than it. That doesn't happen at the moment unless the driver has no choice. Like at Japan, which is the obvious example.

[Dutton]

This old chestnut.

I think overtaking is grand, and would happily see a bit more of it, but, honestly, greatly increasing it really isn't that far up my list of my lists of "musts" at all.

It undoubtedly adds to races, but it is not essential that it happens in any consistent, regularised manner imho.

[Bluewolf]

The problem isnt just overtaking itself - it's that when you see a car that is quicker catch a slower one, then unless the quicker car is wayyyyy faster, the driver of the quicker car has to just sit there behind the slower car because of dirty air - blocking - whatever ---- To have excellent pit strat is fine but why not have overtaking too? F1 is going to continue to lose ratings and A1 GP will come more and more to the front if this problem isn't resolved.

[Dutton]

Oh, indeed, the possibility of overtaking needs to be increased.

Absolutely.

[JABWOA]

I agree with Bluewolf. I don't want to see 2 hours of cars overtaking, not knowing who's going to win merely due to passing (watch a F.Vee race - golden rule, never lead on the last lap) I want the winner to be the one who drove the smartest race (whether it be fast/slow/economic/strategic or just plain flukey) The aero problems with dirty air needs to be addressed.

[krt917]

Originally Posted by Lotusonpole

Also some argue that many years ago races had passing in abundance. This is only partly true. The chance of having an exciting race with much passing was far greater than today but there were still processional races occasionally.

That's true - there were plenty of boring races in the past (1990 Hungary stands out in my mind, though I haven't watched it for ages), but there was more of a chance of an iteresting race. What I don't want to see is quick cars not being able to get passed slower ones and get on with racing.

As others have said, overtaking all the time wouldn't be good either.

[Robert28]

If the brakes were standardised, the braking distances would be increased going into the corner. This would give a "late breaker" more time to pull a move. At the moment they can slow from huge speeds in a couple of meters.

Surely racing should be on the track, not in the pits!!

[shugruah]

I dont agree with you when you say its booring...
In last years we have seen some pilots ( expecially MS and Kimi that offten use this strategy ) give the best of theirselves at this point of the race: when they have the track clear and try to increase the pace in order to gain enough time to enter the pit and leave first. This is when the best laps of the race often are made and when pilots risk it more. This only gets exciting if you are watching the margin increasing lap after lap, when some pilot has 15sec. of advance and hes going 1-2sec faster than heavier cars that have already refulled, and you dont have a clue when is he going to stop, and the other pilots give their best with heavier cars most of the times stuck in trafic, making desperate moves to get the hell out there...! Dont think I was dreaming when shumacher in australia decided to do an extra lap and run out of gas...luckly for him was very close to the pits.


(Probably this is just me trying to find other things to look at during a race, sice we dont see many passing this days.... )

And I agree with rustyfan: "Part of the problem is often how the TV broadcasts are produced": and they(tv broadcasts) should show us the difference betwen the pace of this 2 drivers and not, for example, a fight between a temporary 12th(an already refuelled top pilot) and the 13th ( some minardi that havent yet stopped )

I just feel sad when some race tv directors seem to have no clue about f1 and they show the complete refulling operation, and then, the most important part, when the pilot is leaving the pits ( and you want to see what position he enters ) they show another refulling or some fight between a minardi and a tyrrel.....

[coldtyre]

I agree with you. We remember only good races from the past and always say: "it was better before".

We had very exciting races this year. 3 or 4 times this season the winner was unknown in the beginning of the last lap!

drivers take risks when there is no other choice. If you're behind the leader in the middle of the race, no matter if there's a pitstop left or not, you won't take the risk until last laps.

However, i'm fed up when i see drivers performing "timed sessions", isolated on the track, in the RACEDAY, in order to exit pits in front

Michael's 4 pit stop strategy in France 2004 was intelligent, but it's a JOKE!!! It's F1 racing man!! it makes no sense to stop in order to win!!

[Rennen]

How can you expect overtaking when the fastest cars have the best grid positions?

Bernie Ecclestone is quoted from an interview at the NEC Autosports Show in this weeks Motorsport Newspaper "It's up to the drivers to overtake - nobody's stopping them. It is extraordinary that when one of them is put 10 places back on the grid so they are 15th instead of 5th, they seem to be able to come 1st or 2nd or 3rd with ease."

So therein is the real answer!