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Old 22 Nov 2021, 02:11 (Ref:4084887)   #26
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Good racing at SMP this weekend. Tho Im concerned there are a lot of red and yellows in the category. Are the cars just too hard to drive or do they become impossible to catch once they break. Too much engine for the suspension or downforce. Or is it just a lot of car for (mostly) inexperienced drivers.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 08:32 (Ref:4084909)   #27
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I don't think the cars are too hard to drive. Young drivers seem to be able to match it with experienced aces. However I think the cars need a bit of fine tuning whether that is tyres or aero I don't know. personally I would like to see them go the speeds they should be capable of. I know they are what they are and are meant to be but when we see these powerful V8 cars doing 1 min 26s around SMP it seems slow when FH cars were doing 1 min 22s twenty years ago.
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Old 22 Nov 2021, 09:00 (Ref:4084913)   #28
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It seems the cars in general suffered several suspension failures over the SMP weekend.....
Category powerbroker / manager Barry Rogers spoke of failures due to "unusual circumstances". He spoke of repeated use of the track of late by Supercars had created ruts on the edges of run off kerbs, which when S5000 dropped into them wishbones got bent. He did say it was under control and at Bathurst was confident there would be no issue.

Full story: https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/11/22...r-at-bathurst/
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Old 23 Nov 2021, 13:07 (Ref:4085104)   #29
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I don't think the cars are too hard to drive. Young drivers seem to be able to match it with experienced aces. However I think the cars need a bit of fine tuning whether that is tyres or aero I don't know. personally I would like to see them go the speeds they should be capable of. I know they are what they are and are meant to be but when we see these powerful V8 cars doing 1 min 26s around SMP it seems slow when FH cars were doing 1 min 22s twenty years ago.
It doesn't matter what times they're doing compared to Fholdens.

More speed = more cost.
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Old 26 Nov 2021, 03:57 (Ref:4085493)   #30
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Cheese Bathurst

A round up of the event next week, entrants & TV coverage:

https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/11/26...-for-bathurst/


Good luck all. I wont miss a session.
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Old 26 Nov 2021, 09:07 (Ref:4085512)   #31
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A round up of the event next week, entrants & TV coverage:

https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/11/26...-for-bathurst/


Good luck all. I wont miss a session.
Thanks for that.
Also the one support event, along with TCM that I am really/most looking forward to. Cant wait.
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Old 29 Nov 2021, 23:57 (Ref:4085947)   #32
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Great to see big fast open wheeler s on the Mountain again. How many years is it that we last had anything quicker than F3s?
Hope they have the rear wishbone problem sorted because I think there are places round Mt Panorama that could cause the same sort of stresses they suffered at SMSP with potentially more serious results.
Bring it on, hopefully it is the start of a fan conversion to real racecars.
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Old 30 Nov 2021, 06:35 (Ref:4085963)   #33
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Great to see big fast open wheeler s on the Mountain again. How many years is it that we last had anything quicker than F3s?
Hope they have the rear wishbone problem sorted because I think there are places round Mt Panorama that could cause the same sort of stresses they suffered at SMSP with potentially more serious results.
Bring it on, hopefully it is the start of a fan conversion to real racecars.
Well here is a taster OT..... from today, James Golding takes you for a flat-out tour of Mount Panorama in his Team Valvoline GRM S5000.

As to the times, already very close to breaking the 2 minute mark. Mawson was quickest on a 2:00.8702s today, just shy of the official Bathurst lap record, a 1:59.2910s, set by Christopher Mies during the 2018 Challenge Bathurst aboard an Audi R8 LMS GT3.

https://youtu.be/6A5Z9q4flm0

Edit: that is quicker than the F3 lap record by a couple of seconds give or take.... that was set by Simon Hodge in a Mygale M11-Mercedes-Benz with a 2:02.6701 back in April 2014

Last edited by E.B; 30 Nov 2021 at 06:45. Reason: Added F3 lap record for open wheeler reference
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Old 30 Nov 2021, 08:09 (Ref:4085970)   #34
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Just read confirmation that the S5000's are not running at full power this weekend. A shame that we will not see them at their best, but the ruling in an FIA one aligned to the circuit FIA grade.

They have been electronically limited to reduce power from their usual c.560bhp.
The change was in order to meet a weight/power ratio for an FIA Grade 3 circuit, as Mount Panorama is.

In standard trim, the cars have a weight/power ratio of around 1.51, well below the stipulation of “between 2 and 3 kg/hp” for ‘Category II automobiles’ in Appendix O of the International Sporting Code.

A cut of 85bhp bring the figure close to 2, maybe a bit of ballast to increase weight has been incurred to meet the 2 stipulation.

The reduction means the cars are topping out at about 280 kp instead of the original anticipated 300kph.

It seems the choice was a black white meet the figure or th category cannot run.

Very sad really, but rules are rules, and if their inclusion was conditional not much choice in the matter.

Full story. https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/11/30...-for-bathurst/
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Old 30 Nov 2021, 08:33 (Ref:4085972)   #35
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WTF is happening to those front tyres down Conrod - that looks quite nasty!?
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Old 30 Nov 2021, 08:52 (Ref:4085974)   #36
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WTF is happening to those front tyres down Conrod - that looks quite nasty!?
I read somewhere that they were all using old tyres for practice. I guess they only get allowed limited new sets per meeting and they want to save the new rubber for qualy and races. Happy to be corrected on that but it seems that way from what I have read.

Having said that they looked borderline dangerous and close to failure..
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Old 30 Nov 2021, 18:52 (Ref:4086042)   #37
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Just read confirmation that the S5000's are not running at full power this weekend. A shame that we will not see them at their best, but the ruling in an FIA one aligned to the circuit FIA grade.

They have been electronically limited to reduce power from their usual c.560bhp.
The change was in order to meet a weight/power ratio for an FIA Grade 3 circuit, as Mount Panorama is.

Full story. https://www.speedcafe.com/2021/11/30...-for-bathurst/
I must say that I struggle to understand this. I don't think that there are currently any circuits in Australia higher than FIA grade 3 - so the described power cut should be in place at all Australian circuits.

I can't help the feeling that the adjustment should have happened much earlier but the focus on it was sharpened due to them running at Bathurst. For some time now, single-seaters have been permitted to run at Bathurst on a case-by-case basis, rather than having open slather.
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Old 1 Dec 2021, 15:51 (Ref:4086158)   #38
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I don't think that there are currently any circuits in Australia higher than FIA grade 3
Eastern Creek, Bend, Phillip Island?

Edit -- Hmm, despite the MotoGP, Phillip Island is Grade 3, however Google suggests both The Bend and Eastern Creek are Grade 2. Given what was done with Zandvoort, it doesn't seem like too much would be required to bring The Bend and Eastern Creek to Grade 1 Formula One spec, maybe just some more tarmac run-off areas?


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I can't help the feeling that the adjustment should have happened much earlier
Given they are only a handful of seconds faster than 2.0L Formula 3 cars with less than half as much power, doesn't that tell you all need to know about how little downforce S5000 cars have?

At least on those Grade 2 circuit, the S5000 should at least be as close to Formula 2 level as possible IMO. You can always put the shorter undertrays and small front wings back on for lower grade circuits.

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Old 1 Dec 2021, 15:55 (Ref:4086159)   #39
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I don't think that there are currently any circuits in Australia higher than FIA grade 3 - so the described power cut should be in place at all Australian circuits.
Grade 1:
Albert Park Circuit

Grade 2:
Surfers Paradise Street Circuit
Sydney Motorsport Park
The Bend Motorsport Park

Grade 3:
Adelaide Street Circuit
Hidden Valley Raceway
Mount Panorama Circuit
Newcastle Street Circuit
Phillip Island Grand Prix Circuit
Queensland Raceway
Symmons Plains Raceway
Townsville Street Circuit
Wanneroo Raceway
Winton Motor Raceway
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Old 1 Dec 2021, 20:14 (Ref:4086192)   #40
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Eastern Creek, Bend, Phillip Island?
Given they are only a handful of seconds faster than 2.0L Formula 3 cars with less than half as much power, doesn't that tell you all need to know about how little downforce S5000 cars have?

At least on those Grade 2 circuit, the S5000 should at least be as close to Formula 2 level as possible IMO. You can always put the shorter undertrays and small front wings back on for lower grade circuits.
S5000 cars are an FIA category 3 car, so have to fit within the envelope for that category - IF they were to be upgraded to Category 2 there'd need to be many more changes than you suggest, including tubs I believe although not 100% sure on that score.

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Grade 1:
Albert Park Circuit

Grade 2:
Surfers Paradise Street Circuit
Sydney Motorsport Park
The Bend Motorsport Park

Grade 3:
Adelaide Street Circuit
Hidden Valley Raceway
Mount Panorama Circuit
Newcastle Street Circuit
Phillip Island Grand Prix Circuit
Queensland Raceway
Symmons Plains Raceway
Townsville Street Circuit
Wanneroo Raceway
Winton Motor Raceway
Thanks CR - for some reason I thought that SMP had let the grade 2 rating lapse. So the "new" power cut for Bathurst will no doubt apply to all circuits in Oz, other than SMP, Bend and Surfers.

As S5000 are FIA Cat 3 cars though, it MAY apply everywhere they run and be applied to the cars' homologation, regardless of the circuit being used. We'll find out with time I guess.
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Old 1 Dec 2021, 20:33 (Ref:4086193)   #41
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I read somewhere that they were all using old tyres for practice. I guess they only get allowed limited new sets per meeting and they want to save the new rubber for qualy and races. Happy to be corrected on that but it seems that way from what I have read.

Having said that they looked borderline dangerous and close to failure..
I hope someone got a kick in the pants over that - we have seen what happens when an open wheeler goes off there, and I for one don't want to see it again. Bathurst is not a circuit for those sorts of risks. I wonder if James pitted at the paddock entrance on Mountain Straight, or cruised around to the pit entry - he must have seen the state of the tyres ...
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Old 2 Dec 2021, 16:34 (Ref:4086309)   #42
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justracing should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridjustracing should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Pretty dumb move from Macrow off the start line in race 1, swerving around and ending up taking himself and others off. The cars to do look and sound great though and the support races are very entertaining, loving the look and sound of the Historics and the Transams.
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Old 4 Dec 2021, 14:43 (Ref:4086554)   #43
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Such a shame that we haven't seen a clean uninterrupted race so far, the cars both look and sound great around Bathurst but I can't help but think that it was a somewhat wise move to limit the power output with so little run off areas.
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Old 5 Dec 2021, 00:29 (Ref:4086666)   #44
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I've spent years moaning that we should have big open wheelers back at Bathurst.
This week has changed my mind.
They just don't fit anymore, and any moves to change the circuit to accommodate them would be sacrilege.
Doesn't mean I'm anti S5000, they are awesome, but let's race them on circuits that they can provide continuity of races rather than exhibitions of the effectiveness of gravel traps in avoiding life threatening incidents and the resulting discontinuity.
Philip Island, Sandown, the Bend, SMP and some other Circuits please, and over longer race distances.
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Old 5 Dec 2021, 01:01 (Ref:4086668)   #45
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Agree Oldtony - previous approach of not generally taking winged single seaters to Bathurst was not done on a whim, many knowledgeable & well-credentialed people involved.

The way the S5000s look uncomfortable, somewhat out of place & have thrown themselves off & tripped over each other with monotonous regularity shows the wisdom of the previous approach of not taking such cars to the mountain.

Like you, nothing against S5000 but their time here has gone pretty much as I expected.
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Old 5 Dec 2021, 08:33 (Ref:4086704)   #46
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I have been watching s5000 since that first weekend with barrachello etc.
I think they are a great car, look sound and are spectacular

But I do wonder why they seem to have so many serious incidents resulting in red flags or safety cars and seriously broken race cars. Do they need more tyre or less power or are the drivers not up to it?

Maybe Lambdon GRM etc need to sit down and analyse the cars
I want to see complete long safe close racing. I really dont care if the cars are couple of seconds slower, it all looks the same on the teevee
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Old 5 Dec 2021, 08:56 (Ref:4086709)   #47
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But I do wonder why they seem to have so many serious incidents resulting in red flags or safety cars and seriously broken race cars. Do they need more tyre or less power or are the drivers not up to it?

Maybe Lambdon GRM etc need to sit down and analyse the cars
I want to see complete long safe close racing. I really dont care if the cars are couple of seconds slower, it all looks the same on the teevee
Comment I've had from a number of drivers who've competed in them is that front aero grip in particular is way down on what they're used to with modern single seaters and takes some getting used to. One described the driving method needed as very similar to a Supercar believe it or not.

Problem they've got is that the cars have to fit within an envelope to remain FIA category 3, so if they crank on more aero, they'll have to go down on engine power or tyre size or both. Ultimately they're only j-u-s-t faster than F3 cars but sound much better in the process, so maybe sacrificing some power and tyre size for more aero would make them more like a modern single seater and more along the lines of what drivers expect / need to not trip over each other so much.
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Old 6 Dec 2021, 03:19 (Ref:4087104)   #48
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Couple of pretty avoidable accidents at the Chase IMO. Mawson putting his nose alongside was a nothing-move, then it seemed Cameron did the old 'pretend the driver I've just passed is no longer there' as the crash was well past the apex. It was interesting that there was almost no mention of Katayama coming through the dust cloud too fast and running off the track under yellow.
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Old 9 Dec 2021, 04:23 (Ref:4087840)   #49
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The power/weight ratio would be similar to supercars. If they don't produce the aero grip drivers are used to in open-wheelers, then being comparable to supercars is apt.

If last weekend was anything to go by, they'll end up changing the chase if they keep going.
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Old 28 Feb 2022, 12:07 (Ref:4100630)   #50
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cavvy should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Great to hear Ryan How is looking to join the series - was mightily impressed by his run in an Audi GT3 at Wanneroo a few years back.
A real talent, here is hoping he picks up some sponsorship.
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