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Old 5 Jan 2023, 07:47 (Ref:4138962)   #26
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Originally Posted by E.B View Post
I guess it would be Toyota. in the early noughties.

There were the three teams c 2010, but Hispania / HRT were only ever wanting to be nothing different from Haas ie buying a Dallara Chassis etc. Virgin / Marussia arguably with their Simtek/Wirth and Manor partnerships are borderline existing racing businesses making the step up.

Caterham / Lotus other than the Lotus name... well I dont know where or how to position them given they ran as Lotus.

But Toyota were a proper set up from scratch sort of project that included building its own engine IIRC
IMO, Team Lotus would be considered the most recent newly established team (their only link previous is with name).
Super Aguri should also be considered in any reference to establishing a new team.
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 09:00 (Ref:4138967)   #27
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I guess it would be Toyota. in the early noughties.
My bad, I meant the step from Formula 2 or Formula 3000. Toyota upgraded their existing Le Mans and World Rally Team, which did have some manufacturing capability with the Le Mans cars being not too different from a Formula One car to construct in terms of materials, design etc.
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 09:10 (Ref:4138968)   #28
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IMO, Team Lotus would be considered the most recent newly established team (their only link previous is with name).
Super Aguri should also be considered in any reference to establishing a new team.
I do agree with you over the Lotus scenario given the only Lotus aspect of the car was the name.

Super Aguri I am not so convinced about.... they took over the Arrows factory not to mention staff and indeed the initial SA car, although labelled a Super Aguri (SA05) was based on updated Arrows A23 chassis they had purchased from Paul Stoddart (Minardi) Paul had bought them from the TWR / Arrows administrator. Plus of course mated to a Honda engine. The following year (2007) im sure they used the Honda 2006 chassis, labelled SA06. I seem to recall some disapproval from other constructors at the time. In effect they were a Honda B Team.

Its arguable in my eyes that they were a start from scratch operation given the set up was all resources that stemmed from Arrows, Honda etc. I dont feel strongly about it, and indeed personally had a soft spot for Super Aguri and remember well my very audible jubilation and elation when Sato did his wonders at the 2007 Canadian GP (It would have been 4 or 5 am for me!)

I put my comments above more as an observation rather than a strong argument or total disagreement. Im happy to be corrected on my claims which are memory based .
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 09:58 (Ref:4138970)   #29
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An F2 team just runs a car, most of them would be nowhere near being capable of being a Formula One constructor in their current capacity. At most they would be like HAAS where the design and manufacturing of the car has to contracted out (to Ferrari and Dallara in HAAS' case) and then HAAS just assemble the bits and go racing.

IIRC, Jordan Grand Prix was the last team to make the step, which obviously involves getting a factory, buying autoclaves, buying milling machines, hiring skilled fabricators, machinists and composite technicians, hiring design engineers, setting up a wind tunnel (or renting a wind tunnel), etc. It's obviously the step between running a car built by someone else (in the case of F3000/F2, namely Reynard or Dallara etc) and becoming a constructor yourself. Starting a team from scratch v. upgrading a F2 team is obviously not a big difference in either case, as the majority of being a constructor doesn't apply in F2.

Given the value of the existing F1 franchises now, I don't think Andretti, Porsche or Honda would hesistate at paying a one-off $200m dilution fee. It is quite a negligible cost in the grand scheme of setting up one of 13 now-profitable Formula One franchises, (assuming FOM revenue is extended to 13th, unlike the problematic financials of HRT, Manor, Caterham etc of old).

Whether it's $200m FOM fee plus $200m to setup a factory, or $400m to buy an existing franchise like Williams or Sauber, the costs would be quite similar even with the fee.




Certainly true.

Fans can but dream of 26 cars on the grid.

To be fair, Porsche and Honda had the choice to join and stick around since the 50's, 60's or even 70's when anyone could enter a car and join FOCA (did Ferrari ever join FOCA or was it garagiste only ), yet they foolishly did not do so!

Heck Renault even foolishly closed down their proudly French flagship continental team and bought out and stuck their name on some lowly English garagiste team instead. [Then they sold it and then they bought it back again?! The pride of French being carried on a car built by English men and English women -- yikes, same for Mercedes and the pride of Germany... To think of how much the garagistes have achieved in centring the vast majority of the Formula One industry within 100 miles of Silverstone racing circuit -- incredible, absolutely incredible!]

My memory is telling me that it was several years before Jordan GP invested in much manufacturing equipment.Until then,much like Haas initially,they could be considered in the ranks of what Enzo Ferrari labelled the assemblatori .
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 10:34 (Ref:4138971)   #30
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Originally Posted by P38 in workshop View Post
My memory is telling me that it was several years before Jordan GP invested in much manufacturing equipment.Until then,much like Haas initially,they could be considered in the ranks of what Enzo Ferrari labelled the assemblatori .
Even today, you'd be surprised how much work even the top teams sub out to independent companies.
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 11:38 (Ref:4138972)   #31
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Even today, you'd be surprised how much work even the top teams sub out to independent companies.
And then try and claim the payments to that company should be considered a salary to one of their top three employees.

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Old 5 Jan 2023, 11:43 (Ref:4138974)   #32
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And then try and claim the payments to that company should be considered a salary to one of their top three employees.

Actually I was talking about fabrication and composites work, and numerous constructors.

Not design.
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 15:57 (Ref:4139011)   #33
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Anyway, how about Cadillac for F1?
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 16:17 (Ref:4139013)   #34
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Anyway, how about Cadillac for F1?

Cadillac and Andretti are joining forces to enter F1.


https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/an...ans-/10417491/



No dates or anything but the plan is to base the team in Indiana along with a European base.
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 17:26 (Ref:4139020)   #35
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And then try and claim the payments to that company should be considered a salary to one of their top three employees.
I assume this is about Adrian Newey? He is not an RBR employee, but rather he is contracted to RBR via Newey's own design firm? My readings of the financial regulations is that they explicitly allow that scenario. Probably negotiated by RBR when the regulations were being written to support exactly his situation.

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Cadillac and Andretti are joining forces to enter F1.
I have to be very curious about the power unit. I am assuming a rebadge or maybe they don't even link the power unit to Cadillac? But we may not see more details until this moves closer to being a reality.

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Old 5 Jan 2023, 17:37 (Ref:4139022)   #36
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I have to be very curious about the power unit. I am assuming a rebadge or maybe they don't even link the power unit to Cadillac? But we may not see more details until this moves closer to being a reality.

Richard

Initially they plan to use a re-badge in a technical partnership although I cannot imagine any engine manufacturer letting them get too close if they plan to build their at some stage.
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 18:02 (Ref:4139030)   #37
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Anyway, how about Cadillac for F1?
I assumed this was wishful thinking or even a joke...looks like it's not!
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 20:11 (Ref:4139046)   #38
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I have to be very curious about the power unit. I am assuming a rebadge or maybe they don't even link the power unit to Cadillac? But we may not see more details until this moves closer to being a reality.
They are supposed to have a deal with Renault, although Honda might also be a shout depending on Red Bull.
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 22:05 (Ref:4139055)   #39
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
I'm beginning to wonder if Ben Sulaymen is giving Liberty a bit of a nudge to remind them whose championship it is.Also wondering if there is a probable time limit on the Cadillac LMDh programme as a consequence.
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 22:59 (Ref:4139058)   #40
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They are supposed to have a deal with Renault, although Honda might also be a shout depending on Red Bull.
That would be fun for Indy, GM and Honda together. With neither one actually building the Indy engines, ok it's HPD and Ilmor but you get what I mean. And Andretti running Honda in Indy and IMSA, if rumors of WTR "merger" with Andretti resulting in another Acura GTP car for Jarett.
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Old 5 Jan 2023, 23:06 (Ref:4139059)   #41
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I'm beginning to wonder if Ben Sulaymen is giving Liberty a bit of a nudge to remind them whose championship it is.Also wondering if there is a probable time limit on the Cadillac LMDh programme as a consequence.
Plus the current 'closed shop' F1 set up brought about by the last concorde agreement (which was partly devised to prevent existing teams leaving as much as stopping any new ones entering) runs out at the end of 2025...
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Old 6 Jan 2023, 03:24 (Ref:4139069)   #42
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The Andretti / Caddy setup is looking stronger & better isn’t it? Absolutely huge step to move from being a race team to being a constructor but I expect that they understand the difficulties & have planned for them.

Whilst the process of having the entry accepted is certainly convoluted, it’s not a bad thing to have that process, to ensure as much as possible that new entrants are “real” & properly set up. I just hope that the FIA & F1 (Liberty & teams) are consistent in their approach & work together on the process - would be a great shame if a tug of war erupts & new entrants get caught in the middle.

Hopefully in the Andretti / Caddy case, they’ll know sometime this year what is happening with their application. Interesting suggestions that there may be other parties wishing to jump in - could be heading back to mid-20 size grids even?
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Old 6 Jan 2023, 09:43 (Ref:4139080)   #43
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Andretti getting GM onboard is a massive game changer as far as I am concerned. No longer would the current teams be able to laugh this off as a small scale entry.

I am watching on with interest, although 2026 seems like a long way off. I hope that this goes ahead, although knowing F1 I guess that there are lots of hurdles to jump over before they can even think about actually making a car.
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Old 6 Jan 2023, 10:27 (Ref:4139088)   #44
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Would be nice to have a name like Cadillac in F1, especially with Andretti.
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Old 6 Jan 2023, 17:58 (Ref:4139119)   #45
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Let's hope two more teams join in the next year or two, 10 teams on the grid isn't enough. It would give more opportunities to drivers if we had 12 teams

It needs to happen and Vettel's retirement showed how clogged up the current F1 driver's market is. I would say let two more teams in, which will bring some much needed new blood to F1.

Great to see Andretti/Cadillac putting their hat in the ring. If F1 want's to be truly global, it need more constructors from outside Europe.
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Old 6 Jan 2023, 18:32 (Ref:4139122)   #46
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I have to wonder how deep GM wants to be in F1. I can see them helping to fund the Andretti effort. Maybe even some level of technical assistance. But I just don't see them diving fully into the deep end and taking the step to have a larger "technical ownership" and all that goes with that. I tend to think this is "Andretti F1" with GM branding and funding. Much like Alfa Romeo and Sauber. I expect that Andretti would have the controlling interest in the joint venture.

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Old 6 Jan 2023, 19:16 (Ref:4139126)   #47
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It feels like Andretti is using the power of a big manufacturer to get into F1. Have not the impression it's an all-in effort from Cadillac.
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Old 6 Jan 2023, 19:31 (Ref:4139127)   #48
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According to the GM/Cadillac representative in this Racer.com article, they are still committed to IndyCar as well as competing full time in the WEC with our all-new Cadillac V-LMDh. So yes it would appear Andretti is using the power and branding of a big manufacturer to get into F1.

https://racer.com/2023/01/05/propose...dycar-program/
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Old 8 Jan 2023, 23:36 (Ref:4139266)   #49
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I hope they get in.
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Old 9 Jan 2023, 00:03 (Ref:4139268)   #50
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And hopefully the other teams will be forced to accept them
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