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Old 11 Sep 2019, 12:39 (Ref:3927377)   #31
Anyopenroad
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Iím uncomfortable with outcome-based penalties in sport. Actions should be judged in themselves, not based on luck or (paradoxically) the skill of the party on the receiving end.

To me Strollís rejoin was just as dangerous as Vettelís. Itís weird to issue different sanctions on the basis that Gasly avoided Stroll better than Stroll avoided Vettel. And as Born Racer says, a late move under braking or squeezing room might now attract a warning flag if the other driver backs out, or a penalty if the other driver holds their ground and a collision results.
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Old 11 Sep 2019, 13:37 (Ref:3927389)   #32
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Outcome based penalties are a fact of life, and to exclude that from Sport would result in an "unreal" experience for all.
there has to be a degree of flexibility within the penalty applied to a particular offence.

Lets take a random race incident, rather naming drivers, teams or previous actual events.

Unsafe pit release causing another driver to take avoiding action.
Unsafe pit release loose wheel that remains connected ... driver stops before leaving pitlane.
Unsafe release loose wheel that remains connected, but driver perhaps unaware at that point leaves the pitlane.
Unsafe pit release loose wheel come off endangering safety of others.
Unsafe pit release pulling equipment out into the pitlane.

The offence is Unsafe release, but the outcome has to be taken into consideration, because no one penalty would be appropriate for all these scenarios.
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Old 11 Sep 2019, 13:48 (Ref:3927392)   #33
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Sometimes though you need to make a decision before the wrong outcome happens. You need to punish the actions more than the consequences

Certainly unsafe pit releases are at the stewards discretion and it depends what happens. Obviously default penalties work if used. And I canít think of many occasions when flexibility has been needed
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Old 11 Sep 2019, 15:08 (Ref:3927414)   #34
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Sometimes though you need to make a decision before the wrong outcome happens. You need to punish the actions more than the consequences

Certainly unsafe pit releases are at the stewards discretion and it depends what happens. Obviously default penalties work if used. And I canít think of many occasions when flexibility has been needed
Maybe this is obvious, but I think a core issue is that offenses (or potential ones) fit on a scale that ranges from...

Highly Objective ...... High Subjective

For example a wheel that is not connected and falls off the car before leaving the pit... Hard to say that is anything but highly objective. The wheel either did or did not fall off!

Did someone make too an extra move in the braking zone. That can be very subjective at times. Extensive examination of data (video, telemetry) are attempts to convert the subjective to objective. But even then I expect there is always a subjective element of the analysis.

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Old 12 Sep 2019, 17:20 (Ref:3927593)   #35
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Originally Posted by Anyopenroad View Post
I’m uncomfortable with outcome-based penalties in sport. Actions should be judged in themselves, not based on luck or (paradoxically) the skill of the party on the receiving end.

To me Stroll’s rejoin was just as dangerous as Vettel’s. It’s weird to issue different sanctions on the basis that Gasly avoided Stroll better than Stroll avoided Vettel. And as Born Racer says, a late move under braking or squeezing room might now attract a warning flag if the other driver backs out, or a penalty if the other driver holds their ground and a collision results.

Perhaps the "lesser" penalty for Stroll was also applied because he had already suffered a significant time penalty due to being punted off by Vettel ? If he'd been given a 10 second "stop and go" he would effectively have received a much greater penalty than Vettel, courtesy of Vettel's lack of care.
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Old 12 Sep 2019, 19:52 (Ref:3927615)   #36
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Perhaps the "lesser" penalty for Stroll was also applied because he had already suffered a significant time penalty due to being punted off by Vettel ? If he'd been given a 10 second "stop and go" he would effectively have received a much greater penalty than Vettel, courtesy of Vettel's lack of care.

Maybe I'm missing the point, while they were obviously both numpties, Vettel was rejoining the circuit from the grass while Lance never left the track, he was rejoining the racing line but never left the track. At the time I assumed that was the reason he got a lesser penalty rather than the difference in contact.
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Old 12 Sep 2019, 21:07 (Ref:3927624)   #37
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I donít think Leclerc getting a black/white for forcing another driver off the track would have been such an issue, if Vettel hadnít got that 5 second penalty for arguably less in Canada. As Monza showed bringing out the black/white flag means the battle isnít ruined, so itís shame itís come too late to change Canada
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Old 13 Sep 2019, 00:20 (Ref:3927641)   #38
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Maybe I'm missing the point, while they were obviously both numpties, Vettel was rejoining the circuit from the grass while Lance never left the track, he was rejoining the racing line but never left the track. At the time I assumed that was the reason he got a lesser penalty rather than the difference in contact.
Iím fine with the difference too.
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Old 13 Sep 2019, 01:39 (Ref:3927650)   #39
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Maybe this is obvious, but I think a core issue is that offenses (or potential ones) fit on a scale that ranges from...

Highly Objective ...... High Subjective

For example a wheel that is not connected and falls off the car before leaving the pit... Hard to say that is anything but highly objective. The wheel either did or did not fall off!

Did someone make too an extra move in the braking zone. That can be very subjective at times. Extensive examination of data (video, telemetry) are attempts to convert the subjective to objective. But even then I expect there is always a subjective element of the analysis.

Richard
The issue of not leaving a car width from the edge of the track to a car alongside you though would appear to be absolutely clear cut, perhaps some painted lines on the track designating a car width from the circuit edge would be in order. You can weave as much as you like, but you must stay on one side or the other of the marked line.

The problem is that many of the stewards decisions don't stand up to any examination for consistency.

Jolyon Palmer puts it reasonably eloquently here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-331N72Iu0

On a separate note.

I thought the case of Sainz junior bumping Alex Albon off the road was also subject to debate, Sainz admitted that he had lost the rear and "oversteered and hit Alex without purpose", pushing Alex off the road.
The incident was not even looked at by the stewards, yet Sainz had hit Albon and knocked him off the road whilst Albon was trying to overtake him. Why should Sainz's mistake and contact with Albon advantaged Sainz and disadvantaged Albon.
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Old 13 Sep 2019, 01:50 (Ref:3927651)   #40
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What penalty should have been applied to that?
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Old 13 Sep 2019, 03:50 (Ref:3927654)   #41
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The issue of not leaving a car width from the edge of the track to a car alongside you though would appear to be absolutely clear cut, perhaps some painted lines on the track designating a car width from the circuit edge would be in order. You can weave as much as you like, but you must stay on one side or the other of the marked line.

The problem is that many of the stewards decisions don't stand up to any examination for consistency.

Jolyon Palmer puts it reasonably eloquently here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-331N72Iu0
I know what you mean but I disagree with the idea of painted lines on the track surface - just one more thing to cause traction loss and in wet conditions simply adds to risk.

I think that one of the things many get wrong when discussing consistency (including Mr Palmer in the video) is comparing stewards decisions now with those taken in previous years. There's a new rule book issued each year, fresh briefings and changes made to how the sport is run, even though sometimes those changes are minor. We can see that right now for example with the re-introduction of the "bad sportsmanship" flag being used in Grands Prix.

I also think that the Vettel penalty in Canada this year was something of a watershed and it certainly appears that the approach taken to judging on-track moments has altered since then - no doubt discussed at some length in drivers briefings.

Consistency should be judged over a shorter period due to the changing and evolving nature of the sport itself and the development of rules and interpretations. Personally I like that the shackles have been loosened somewhat although it may still all end in tears whilst drivers work out the new limits and no doubt some will overstep and either go beyond the "warning" point or worse but if we get better racing from it, less in-depth over-analysis and a bit more "edge" back in the sport (without risking driver safety) then it seems to me that it's a good thing.
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Old 13 Sep 2019, 06:31 (Ref:3927666)   #42
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What penalty should have been applied to that?
As in most of the overtaking scenarios, penalize the one who screwed up, so I would say give the place back Adam.

Give the place back should generally be the rule for overtaking sins.

Thoughts?
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Old 13 Sep 2019, 08:11 (Ref:3927673)   #43
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They do that in the BTCC. Not sure it would necessarily work in F1
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Old 13 Sep 2019, 12:08 (Ref:3927704)   #44
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I know what you mean but I disagree with the idea of painted lines on the track surface - just one more thing to cause traction loss and in wet conditions simply adds to risk.

I think that one of the things many get wrong when discussing consistency (including Mr Palmer in the video) is comparing stewards decisions now with those taken in previous years. There's a new rule book issued each year, fresh briefings and changes made to how the sport is run, even though sometimes those changes are minor. We can see that right now for example with the re-introduction of the "bad sportsmanship" flag being used in Grands Prix.

I also think that the Vettel penalty in Canada this year was something of a watershed and it certainly appears that the approach taken to judging on-track moments has altered since then - no doubt discussed at some length in drivers briefings.

Consistency should be judged over a shorter period due to the changing and evolving nature of the sport itself and the development of rules and interpretations. Personally I like that the shackles have been loosened somewhat although it may still all end in tears whilst drivers work out the new limits and no doubt some will overstep and either go beyond the "warning" point or worse but if we get better racing from it, less in-depth over-analysis and a bit more "edge" back in the sport (without risking driver safety) then it seems to me that it's a good thing.
The telltale line for leaving a car width would not have to be either a heavy line or a continuous line, so I think its effect on traction should be very minimal.

If the stewards do not exhibit consistency over at least the duration of the championship they are manipulating the championship.
They may be able to change horses in-between seasons, but changing the rules during the season would seem to be unacceptable from a championship point of view as it affects points allocations.
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Old 13 Sep 2019, 12:09 (Ref:3927705)   #45
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They do that in the BTCC. Not sure it would necessarily work in F1
Why not Griff?
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