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Old 26 Apr 2019, 14:25 (Ref:3899798)   #351
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Originally Posted by Umai Naa View Post
The test doesn't account for how the aero devices behave through a corner or at yaw.

Which is what people in the industry are up in arms about.
I think that is a furphy. The end plates are a flat piece of carbon fibre, they aren't magically making 'side force'. In normal cornering the car is basically at zero yaw angle, so as far as airflow is concerned still straight. Apart from body roll and front wheel angle it is no different, and insignificant to the rear wing.

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Pics of new end plates here.


https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/04/26...te-comparison/

Still a sponsor friendly size....

Parity based on race lap times to me is sporting parity, not technical parity. It's assuming teams, equipment, setups and drivers are all of equal quality.
Maybe losing the bottom edge will create more drag from less clean flow separation at the rear of the quarter panel, losing a bit of upper leading edge perhaps a bit less clean up of turbulent airflow but surely more appearing to do something.

Absent of proper testing lap times which lead to winning are an indicator of a discrepancy, at least when there were enough data points. If the Mustang was not dominating because the teams were still sorting it out, there wouldn't be any complaints of aero advantage?

My opinion is Supercars were too weak in allowing such a departure from the road car body shape. I would have dealt with the roof height problem by raising the belt Line slightly, and kept an authentic shape front and rear from there. It would mean a deeper front spoiler and side skirts (higher sills) which would be easier to make look good. If necessary for drag, a bonnet vent from the grille over the radiator could reduce the effective height of the front end.

Ideally Supercars should be driving the design of aero additions to the cars via their own staff. With the intention of being touring car racing, big downforce is not needed so elements could be pretty similar between cars. Do wind tunnel testing to validate the numbers, open access to data for the teams so the process can be trusted. Far better than the current secret-squirrel megabucks (or not in the case of the Nissan) development; the championship is about racing after all not aerodynamics which nobody really cares about and which can only be a distraction.

This could improve variety in the championship because it would reduce the input required from manufacturers to participate and thus the barrier to entry. More variety, more interest, more sponsors etc.
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Old 26 Apr 2019, 15:07 (Ref:3899806)   #352
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Yes Bob, just like you are now - bought and sold.
I miss the old, independent Umai....
I'm still independent.

I couldn't care less what the badge was on the car. Just providing examples to add to the pile of BS everyone is carrying on about.
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Old 26 Apr 2019, 15:08 (Ref:3899808)   #353
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Then threatened to pull out of Group C when caught by Cams.








and the stories and legends from every manufacturer go on and on.....




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Please don't modify quotes to suit your agenda. It's poor form.
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Old 26 Apr 2019, 16:41 (Ref:3899826)   #354
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The test doesn't account for how the aero devices behave through a corner or at yaw.

Which is what people in the industry are up in arms about.
Conveniently ignoring that the ZB Commodore bodykit was also designed to exploit aerodynamic performance in yaw... The Mustang was merely following the precedent of the ZB Commodore.

Personally, I don't understand why Kelly Racing did not homologate larger rear wing endplates with a bootlid extension for this season, in order to match the ZB Commodore. But, perhaps, it's best they didn't as it may have been clipped by a parity adjustment anyway...



vs



If I was Kelly Racing I would have even gone creative and followed the example of the Renault F1 mothership with louvred end-plates, as presumably there is nothing in the regulations prohibiting it?


Last edited by V8 Fireworks; 26 Apr 2019 at 16:51.
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Old 26 Apr 2019, 21:30 (Ref:3899881)   #355
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Please don't modify quotes to suit your agenda. It's poor form.

No agenda. Just providing examples to add to the pile of BS everyone is carrying on about.


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Old 27 Apr 2019, 08:37 (Ref:3899921)   #356
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Cmon Mixer your better than that. You could apply the same liberal interpretation of reading the rules to advantage by practicably EVERY team in pit lane. 888 have been the masters of it. Good on em. It yielded results. The games changing like it did last year when 888 debuted the ZB with composite panels.

Leaded mufflers or lead lining between the muffler and the floor? Ones a grey area, the others illegal. 888 had flexing splitters/wings in 09.
Holden teams with rubber mounts for front splitters
Nissan GTR's with turbo valves which were set by the team that they were designed to restrict (and many years down the track it was admitted they fudged them)
Lightweight bodyshells
Cars built to incorrect weights due to misprints in the rule books
Freon valves in the fire system that just happen to "accidentally" activate in front of the intercooler during a qualifying lap

The point is, everyone exploits the rules. Until it is declared illegal, engineers will always try to find an advantage.
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Old 27 Apr 2019, 10:05 (Ref:3899935)   #357
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Until it is declared illegal, engineers will always try to find an advantage.
That's why the Car of the Future rulebook has this very bizarre statement:

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DIVISION “C” – VCS TECHNICAL RULES
1.1.6 For clarification, in these Rules, unless it says that you can, then you cannot
https://www.supercars.com/championsh...ations-manual/

The F1 rulebook certainly does not say that!
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Old 27 Apr 2019, 11:33 (Ref:3899959)   #358
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Perhaps the Falcon FG/X might prove a better a better car to run now
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Old 27 Apr 2019, 15:00 (Ref:3900014)   #359
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Perhaps the Falcon FG/X might prove a better a better car to run now
Likewise VF Commodore after ZB Commodore gets an adjustment too.

They are better looking cars and it would be a welcome change!
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Old 28 Apr 2019, 21:44 (Ref:3900362)   #360
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If I was Kelly Racing I would have even gone creative and followed the example of the Renault F1 mothership with louvred end-plates, as presumably there is nothing in the regulations prohibiting it?

Sedan aero a lot different to F1 aero. Those louved end-plates make the wing work, but also manage the airflow off the back end of the car. No point on a sedan.

Got to remember these things punch such a hole in the air, the only reason the Altima wing is so high, is so that it actually gets some airflow on it so it works.
Also notice how the centre mounted wing has gone?? Again, the centre mounts don't let the wing work at 100%, so they went.
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Old 29 Apr 2019, 01:47 (Ref:3900379)   #361
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This thread's unfortunately be derailed; but would genuinely like to hear from Nissan fans from the Group A days, on their thoughts on how the R32 Nissan GTR was nobbled by CAMS, to try and make the Group A Commodores appear more competitive at the time.
Group A, by the end wasnt Group A any more. If I remember correctly technically the VN never did run under a pure Group A formula - it was always modified. The R32 happened to be one of the last of the Group A cars homologated and was always therefore likely to be the best.

It was a different age anyway. The Wanneroo round had 16 entries in 1992. Mallalalalala may well have been even less than that. The Sandown 500 had to run production cars to get a half decent grid.

Basically the Nissan had to be nobbled for the survival of the sport. A completely different circumstance to now when changes to the Mustang look to be damaging the integrity of the sport.

Anyway I would happily add any of the homologated Group A cars to my collection of one, which is an R32 GTR.
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Old 29 Apr 2019, 01:48 (Ref:3900380)   #362
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Did anyone seriously expect Penske to do anything other than dominate the category? A simple yes or no answer will suffice.

After the changes will they test the cars in the same way they tested them for parity or just make some changes and call it job done. I have never followed what the parity procedure is but by all aero standards and the little I know it is stone age stuff at best. They should ask Penske for a loan of his wind tunnel and hire some independent aero engineers to do this stuff properly. Cost will be a factor but this is a professional racing series isn't it and real racing costs real money. The knee jerk changes being made make the managers of the category look like teachers catching a five year old doing something wrong and scolding them all because they did not supervise the child properly.
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Old 29 Apr 2019, 02:41 (Ref:3900389)   #363
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Did anyone seriously expect Penske to do anything other than dominate the category? A simple yes or no answer will suffice.
Yes, was always going to be the case at one point or another....

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After the changes will they test the cars in the same way they tested them for parity or just make some changes and call it job done. I have never followed what the parity procedure is but by all aero standards and the little I know it is stone age stuff at best. They should ask Penske for a loan of his wind tunnel and hire some independent aero engineers to do this stuff properly. Cost will be a factor but this is a professional racing series isn't it and real racing costs real money. The knee jerk changes being made make the managers of the category look like teachers catching a five year old doing something wrong and scolding them all because they did not supervise the child properly.
Without VSC telling us, you would have to assume that the independent aero consultant they bought in, D2H, that they've gone over all the CFD data from all the cars to get an idea of what is happening. Even Dutton over at T8 said that testing in a rolling road tunnel is far better than on a aerodrome.

The stupid thing is, they're testing the cars to 200km/h, not what's happening after. They've bought this onto themselves more than anything by having such parameters. It's red faces all round...

Either way, if the thing keeps winning, they'll only make more of a farce by handicapping it more over the Holden.
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Old 30 Apr 2019, 11:46 (Ref:3900691)   #364
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I also recall a time when Ford supplied it's preferred teams with light weight bodyshells.
It came to light in this crash (2:15) in 1995 when John Bowe's bonnet folded like a coke can. Subsequently came out that the Ford had produced some light weight bodyshells and panels. Still came it at correct weight, but team's were able to decide where to ballast. Think the end result was that the lightweight bodyshells remained eligible, but the position of the ballast was fixed.
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Old 30 Apr 2019, 23:09 (Ref:3900872)   #365
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That’s good, nice to see lessons learned from that. Never good if bonnet’s go up so easy. That’s why we have rules like that in place
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Old 3 May 2019, 12:08 (Ref:3901483)   #366
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I really enjoy Paul Morris’s no crap approach. But seriously, this comment is incorrect.

“Morris claims that there are a number of features which have not been allowed in Supercars before, even when then-homologation teams of other manufacturers attempted to introduce them.
Those features include the lower edge of the rear wing endplates, which has now been snipped, as well as a flick on the plane which hangs off the Mustang’s bootlid that Morris believes functions effectively as a second wing.
“That’s another one of the implements, the tools, that none of the teams have ever been able to use before,” he claimed regarding the bootlid attachment.
“That little duckbill kick on the rear bootlid, it kicks up, creates downforce; that’s never been allowed to be used before from any other teams.
“That’s one of the things when I saw the car and went, ‘Holy moly, how have you let them do that?’ There’s another wing on the car.”

Yeah the Mustang has the extra wing hanging over the back. But so does the Commodore. They both have it. Nissan really needed to pay top dollar to have better design!
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Old 3 May 2019, 18:01 (Ref:3901560)   #367
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No nonsense approach is what it needs. That said he has got a few things wrong and is maybe looking in the wrong areas. He needs to watch what the others do, as they seem to know more about this game.
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Old 3 May 2019, 19:23 (Ref:3901585)   #368
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What areas do you think he should be looking in?
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Old 4 May 2019, 19:37 (Ref:3901852)   #369
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Maybe try and learn from the other teams
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Old 6 May 2019, 02:45 (Ref:3902122)   #370
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I really enjoy Paul Morris’s no crap approach. But seriously, this comment is incorrect.

“Morris claims that there are a number of features which have not been allowed in Supercars before, even when then-homologation teams of other manufacturers attempted to introduce them.
Those features include the lower edge of the rear wing endplates, which has now been snipped, as well as a flick on the plane which hangs off the Mustang’s bootlid that Morris believes functions effectively as a second wing.
“That’s another one of the implements, the tools, that none of the teams have ever been able to use before,” he claimed regarding the bootlid attachment.
“That little duckbill kick on the rear bootlid, it kicks up, creates downforce; that’s never been allowed to be used before from any other teams.
“That’s one of the things when I saw the car and went, ‘Holy moly, how have you let them do that?’ There’s another wing on the car.”

Yeah the Mustang has the extra wing hanging over the back. But so does the Commodore. They both have it. Nissan really needed to pay top dollar to have better design!
Not sure what PM is going on about, the Volvo was the first to sport this and it was because the CFD was showing that the wing wasn't working properly, not to mention they needed that little bit more to match the rear deck surface as on the Commodore and Falcon.

Maybe it's time that VSC stood in and said to Nissan we want you to step up, what help you need, lets get it and get you guys forward. The Kelly's have great business sense, but somehow i very doubt their racing sense at the moment and what is happening with that car.
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Old 6 May 2019, 03:10 (Ref:3902123)   #371
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The decklid extension on the Mustang is upswept, whereas those seen on the VF, ZB, FG-X and Volvo are flat.

I'm in agreeance about the Kellys. Their politicking of the rules has been quite poor in comparison.
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Old 6 May 2019, 03:17 (Ref:3902124)   #372
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Well that shows more ingenuity and you can't blame them for taking it further than the rest. Just a shame the Kellys need to spoil it by politicizing, not what the series need
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Old 6 May 2019, 03:48 (Ref:3902137)   #373
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Well that shows more ingenuity and you can't blame them for taking it further than the rest. Just a shame the Kellys need to spoil it by politicizing, not what the series need
I think your algorithm needs tuning.
The Kelly Racing squad are the least publicly or privately political with the powers that be of the sport. They ask for nothing, so they get exactly what they ask for. There is something very different around the aero of the Nissan, and that of either the Ford or the Holden... or the Benz or Volvo as it happens.
The Nissan is on its 3rd homologation of aero, and its still looking different...
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Old 6 May 2019, 10:42 (Ref:3902187)   #374
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Ok fair enough. The Nissan certainly needs improving compared to the rest, but it’s done well to get where it is
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Old 14 Jun 2019, 07:44 (Ref:3910009)   #375
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Can't make the Mustang slow enough so now they make the holden go faster, where does all this stop? They wouldn't be helping the Mustang if the holden was winning everything, this is a rort!

https://www.speedcafe.com/2019/06/14...ges-explained/
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