[Official] Brazilian Grand Prix 2019: Grand Prix Weekend Thread - Round 20 of 21

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Greem

TBH, there's no need at all for a safety car in F1 in most cases. The technology is such that they could just do a variant of FCY (that isn't VSC), where the speed limits vary by light panel sector using the current flag light signalling system to the cars. It's not rocket science, it would keep the speeds down, and it would allow safe working of everyone in the danger zone - and if there's a genuine need to have a step up from that, that's where the SC comes out.

I vote to sack Ross Brawn and put Greem in his place. This is what F1 needs.

BTW, to all those people bemoaning the performance differential of the "haves" and have nots", let's not forget that the difference between 1st and 6th or between 1st and 20th has never been less than it is now. Never. Not since 1950.

[chillibowl]

i would like to see numbers about that but accepting it as is...can you say that this is not a direct result of SCs bunching up the field, moving the lapped cars back onto the lead lap, more DRS zones, tire strategies, engine unit conservation?

basically the stuff your side calls 'artificial'?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

i would like to see numbers about that but accepting it as is...can you say that this is not a direct result of SCs bunching up the field, moving the lapped cars back onto the lead lap, more DRS zones, tire strategies, engine unit conservation?

basically the stuff your side calls 'artificial'?

To get around the question of whether SC has closed the field, then qualifying is a reasonable indicator.

A look at the 107% results seems to suggest the front-back spread has closed.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/107%25_rule

[chillibowl]

or that the slowest teams run in their fastest trim/tires/PU mode in Q1 while the top runners do not?

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

or that the slowest teams run in their fastest trim/tires/PU mode in Q1 while the top runners do not?

Surely that will have been true since 2011?

Since that season, the amount of races in which at least one car has failed to qualify within 107% reads:

4,3,1,1,3,2,1,1,0

[chillibowl]

results from the first race of this season and also a race with no SC periods.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_A...classification

i have sort of been banging on about this issue this year and if i have time i will find some more races that had no SC periods.

fair enough that it might just be something in my own head (very possible) and not supported by the numbers but the divide is there people! we must stand up against the 1%ers!!!

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Surely that will have been true since 2011?

Since that season, the amount of races in which at least one car has failed to qualify within 107% reads:

4,3,1,1,3,2,1,1,0

i suppose to that i would have to say rules stability has played its part over the seasons!

[chillibowl]

also HRT/Virgin/Marussia/Caterham.

will also need to refresh my memory about what happened in Hungary 2016. that race caught a lot of people out!

edit: it was heavy rain and a red flag.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

BTW, to all those people bemoaning the performance differential of the "haves" and have nots", let's not forget that the difference between 1st and 6th or between 1st and 20th has never been less than it is now. Never. Not since 1950.

I only started paying attention in the late 1980's and even then my memory of that is not the best, so I can't really say what it was like "back in the day". But I also think that while the front to rear gap is an excellent measurement of pace parity, it probably leaves out other things.

My perception is that reliability has skyrocketed. So the level of unpredictability has likely gone down. For me, that means the level of enjoyment is dropping as well.

It seems odd that the "great" races these days are ones involving weather, crashes, retirements and safety car periods. All being some level of "randomness" that is injected into a given race. When all runs "as planned" they tend to be boring and processional (even if run nose to tail).

Richard

[S griffin]

Yes, that’s true. Reliability has made it a bit more preductable compared to say the turbo era when the car lasting to the end of the race was never a given. As has the compulsory pitstop rule

[chillibowl]

it is curious that unreliability would be considered 'unpredictable' where as weather or an accident leading to a SC is considered 'randomness'.

one is certainly preferable to the other and if i am to give an honest answer i would say for me there is something more natural (if one can use that word to describe car racing) to a mechanical breakdown then to a changing weather pattern (despite weather actually being a natural phenomenon).

the engineers and drivers have a greater responsibility in mechanical break downs so perhaps that makes it more acceptable.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

My perception is that reliability has skyrocketed. So the level of unpredictability has likely gone down. For me, that means the level of enjoyment is dropping as well.

It seems odd that the "great" races these days are ones involving weather, crashes, retirements and safety car periods. All being some level of "randomness" that is injected into a given race. When all runs "as planned" they tend to be boring and processional (even if run nose to tail).

Richard

Of course reliability has skyrocketed, there is now a rev limit for both the engine and turbo, there is a maximum fuel flow limit, the tyres are delicate and the fastest lap of the race is often seven seconds off the pole time. Essentially they have taken the stress test off all the components.
No wonder they are more reliable!

Allow unlimited revs and fuel and more durable tyres and the reliability will go out the windows as the stresses increase in the chase for more horsepower.

[Adam43]

I know it doesn’t fit the narrative, but the reliability had improved dramatically before any of that. It’s improvement since, if any, has only been on pace of what happened before.

There is no fun to suggest that they manage to go quicker nowadays on way less fuel than they used to and with components that last so much longer.

[RWill2073]

What a wonderful mess that race was! My now late thoughts:

Hamilton whining and drama queen version in full effect... but then as mentioned earlier in this thread, takes responsibility for incident now that the championship is sewn up and maybe psychologically helps his case later. In other words... phony.

But, I don't think he really deserved to be penalized. (Which is why falling on the sword as he did is even more odd to me). I think any top notch driver like him, Ricciardo, verstappen, etc go for that opening. I think guys like bottas would stick their nose there, see albon chopping over on racing line, bit the brakes, avoid the contact, fall a second and a half off albon after that corner, meaning no drs, and fall into the clutches of the following car. It was just a huge opening left there. But I don't think albon did wrong, either, just a racing thing.

On albon, maybe it's the late intro to the car he is dealing with, and he has been solid, but I don't see him capable of fighting with verstappen, hamilton, leclerc, etc. Seems he is a slight step off them. I kinda look at it in my nature vs nurture way. He's much more nurture, without the nature aspect of Hamilton or verstappen. While neither of them grew up poor, obviously, they also have that more natural ability in them, while albon seems more like he has been highly trained and learned in the craft, but maybe doesn't quite have that natural ability that gets someone to the very top of the sport. Maybe I'm reading too much into it, because he didn't get an off season with the car he's in now, but neither did a 17 year old verstappen and that showed immediate results.

Leclerc once again proved the better of vettel. He stood his ground (didn't move at all down the straight) and vettel was inches off in his internal measurement of where he was in relation to another car again. It's like his reflexes are aging earlier than others. He even looks older than others his age, lol. He was standing by his broken car again, looking like someone trying to come to grips with mortality, or his weakening abilities. I do think he seems like one of the more likable drivers off track, but maybe not when it comes to team politics.

Maybe my prediction of hulkenberg to ferrari is more likely than anyone else thought?!?! He deserves a spot on the grid, imo. There's at least 6-8 guys that could go from the grid before he should.

Happy for gasly. That was cool to see someone so happy. And get redemption of some sorts.

It's sort of a downer watching races at that track. The helicopter shots that end up showing brutal poverty directly across the street from the most extreme opulence is disturbing to me. Especially when f1 takes money from these governments, which at some point will come from those people right by the track living in poverty. Great track for great racing, but always a mixed feeling at that track for me.

[S griffin]

The poverty doesn’t detract from a great circuit. It’s such a shame that it’s followed by such a bland circuit in Abu Dhabi. Yas Marina is not a circuit to look forward to after Interlagos

[F1Pete]

I have said this time and time again....and I am sure everyone agrees. The obvious fix to all the problems at Ferrari is to bring Kimi back to replace Vettel. Ferrari got rid of the wrong guy.

Look at all the points that Vettel has thrown away the last couple of years or more. Look at the turmoil he has caused within the team and with his new team mate. Ferrari has a washed up driver pressuring his team, causing issues, unwanted stress and team instability.

Look at Mercedes with both drivers creating synergy within the team. Synergy equals success. Kimi would bring the team stability, popularity, synergy and stability. There would be no stress between the drivers, garages, etc. The focus would be on racing, winning and not egos.

I remember way back in the day when I predicted JV would be called up to drive the Beemer (BMW). I received hate posts from the naysayers. Well, it happened.

Surely, Ferrari management can see this would be a common sense move for 2020. Italy would literally go crazy. Kimi back to Ferrari. Kimi WDC 2020. Anything can happen in Formula One.

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[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by F1Pete

I have said this time and time again....and I am sure everyone agrees. The obvious fix to all the problems at Ferrari is to bring Kimi back to replace Vettel. Ferrari got rid of the wrong guy.

Look at all the points that Vettel has thrown away the last couple of years or more. Look at the turmoil he has caused within the team and with his new team mate. Ferrari has a washed up driver pressuring his team, causing issues, unwanted stress and team instability.

Look at Mercedes with both drivers creating synergy within the team. Synergy equals success. Kimi would bring the team stability, popularity, synergy and stability. There would be no stress between the drivers, garages, etc. The focus would be on racing, winning and not egos.

I remember way back in the day when I predicted JV would be called up to drive the Beemer (BMW). I received hate posts from the naysayers. Well, it happened.

Surely, Ferrari management can see this would be a common sense move for 2020. Italy would literally go crazy. Kimi back to Ferrari. Kimi WDC 2020. Anything can happen in Formula One.

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If..... this happened, your last sentence makes no sense. Kimi would only he brought in as a clear number 2. No way would he be brought back to win a wdc. That would not create harmony as you suggest in the rest of your post. If Kimi was brought back, it is to give leclerc clear preferred status.

But, you can't say vettel is washed up and then say bring back kimi. He's not in his prime anymore. And vettel hasn't been the cause of turmoil in ferrari. Poor management that lead to failures have been the reason for turmoil. Vettel has at times (rightly) had to put his stamp on strategy and whatnot because he can't trust the team to get it right, which they mostly haven't.

Seriously, on dollars per whatever performance metric you choose, is there a more underachieving team than ferrari?

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Seriously, on dollars per whatever performance metric you choose, is there a more underachieving team than ferrari?

With the exception of the Schumacher era ,you describe the situation that has existed for about forty years. Better funded than the others and vast resources to call on. When they were testing at Fiorano three hundred plus days each year they were doing well and now that advantage has been removed by the testing restrictions. At the other end of the cost/performance scale you have Toro Rosso doing very well with much less.

[S griffin]

Ferrari were the most organised team in the early to mid noughites. Now they are back to how they were before, very Italian as in lack of organisation and unpredictable at times. Very much like when Enzo was alive

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Now they are back to how they were before, very Italian as in lack of organisation and unpredictable at times.

Anything to back up the claim that an Italian trait is to have a lack of organisation and be unpredictable?

the 'Ndrangheta, the Camorra and the Sicilian mafia are all described as organised.....

[S griffin]

The point I’m making is that Ferrari before the Todt era were very chaotic in it’s management at times and as a result never achieved what they could have, like today

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Anything to back up the claim that an Italian trait is to have a lack of organisation and be unpredictable?

the 'Ndrangheta, the Camorra and the Sicilian mafia are all described as organised.....

I mean, if we want to go down that route, comparing it with the mafia for a trait of "organization", a business with tons of in-fighting, backstabbing, assassination attempts on bosses, that ends up destroying anything good around it, sounds a lot like Ferrari, with drama, in fighting, and destroying careers of greats like alonso and vettel......

I mean, you have two family members trying to take each other out to move up the ranks.... sounds mafia-like in those terms...

[F1Pete]

I didn't say Kimi would come back as their number one driver. Leclerc would get that status and so he should. Kimi would just happen to beat him .



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[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

I mean, if we want to go down that route, comparing it with the mafia for a trait of "organization", a business with tons of in-fighting, backstabbing, assassination attempts on bosses, that ends up destroying anything good around it, sounds a lot like Ferrari, with drama, in fighting, and destroying careers of greats like alonso and vettel......

I mean, you have two family members trying to take each other out to move up the ranks.... sounds mafia-like in those terms...

I've worked with Italians for a number of years and they are very enthusiastic and dedicated to the project they are working on. However, when someone comes up with an alternative idea on how to do something, then they tend to drop what they were originally working on, before seeing that through to completion and concentrate on the new idea. Then they return to what they were originally working on. That's my experience and I wonder if that's what is gong on at Ferrari?

[Peter Mallett]

Ditto. They also spend a lot of time arguing amongst themselves. That said they can be really good fun and the food and the country are generally very, very good.