Yet more fencing at Brands Hatch

[grantp]

Originally Posted by bella

yeah, this is me. if i'm trackside i watch the races and take some photos to remember the scenery and surroundings and also my view but i like to have my own photos of the cars from the paddock to look back at. if i want a photo of the car on track, i'll find a pro who did it and look at theirs. has that attitude been caused by the lack of photo opportunities in spectator areas? or is it down to the fact that i don't have a couple of grand to spend on a lens to provide photographs worth missing most of the track action for? difficult to say.

I started taking shots of racing on a semi-regular basis when a move to Castle Donington, shortly after the track re-opened back in the 70s, gave me ready access to a facility that was minutes away. Oddly having worked in a motor racing business for 3 years shortly before that I hardly ever took a camera - but then I was not regularly at race meetings and the equipment that was available to me was not of great use for the purpose. Or so I saw it.

Back then, absent thousands of sites on the internet, the only viable option was to buy the magazines and see what was in them or to take you own shots. No doubt one could buy from the pros through the agencies of for selected public offers but realistically taking the shots yourself was a interesting thing to do, though commercial processing and prints were not cheap.

Perhaps the entire model has changed in recent years and we old fogies have not moved with it?

That said the number of spectators with (close to) 'pro-level' digital kit seems greater than ever and I suspect that these are the people who are the most regular attendees at circuits though rather swamped when the crashfest crowds turn up and start videoing everything with their mobile phones.

Of course you don't have to spend a lot of money to get some half decent results, especially if they are for personal pleasure or internet sharing. Nor do you have to miss most of the action.

On the other hand if new structures, of whatever kind, continually encroach on one's favourite viewing options it doesn't need a camera viewfinder to help one miss the action.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

Take a look at some of the big meetings, such as BTCC & BSB. "Largely non-existent spectators"?

Well, there was a suggestion somewhere that the DTM people had been pushing for this new fence for some years where previously simply disallowing access to the area in question had seemed to be sufficient control. So what changed?

I can't comment about the BSB and the potential risk of a bike leaving the track and flying into that area although I don't recall reading anything to suggest that has happened at any point.

As for the BTCC (or WTCC) crash fest ... what can one say. Have they at some point unexpectedly visited the sometime spectator area in question?

Maybe the entire circuit should be lined with fences? Or perhaps follow the NASCAR oval model. The natural amphitheatre at brands could be turned in to a 1 mile oval with 10 metre fences and surrounding grandstands. It would be a perfect place to do it and it should be possible to engineer things to minimise local noise pollution - an extra win. Donington could support something similar.

I suppose it all depends on what you expect from your motor sport and how you would like it to be in 10 years or 20 years time. Perhaps Stock Car stadiums will make a comeback.

All that said ... I do have some sympathy with the argument that the threat of litigation and the likely responses from our judicial system force the facility owners to do something on a 'just in case' basis. It's a social attitude that may just end up crippling the entire country financially. In which case any discussion about fences at Druids are important only as an example of how cautious 'correctness', seemingly never questioned, can be a corrosive influence in the longer term.

Here's a thought.

Some years ago someone wrote a post or an article that I read that pointed out that for a large Motor Bike race meeting it was very common for several of the bike riding spectators attending to be killed or seriously injured travelling to or from the meeting and the journeys carried far greater risk than the action at the track.

So what might one suggest can be done about that?

(The comparative numbers are similar, as I recall, for large car meetings as well.)

[brands]

Originally Posted by Alfaholic

I haven't seen this mentioned on here, but spectators and amateur snappers may like to know that there is new chain link fencing all the way on the inside of the circuit on the run up to Druids (see below)

Attachment 34750

Druids itself and the run down to Graham Hill bend are (currently) still clear...

Only heard about this today and have already scrubbed my November visit to Brands.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by brands

Only heard about this today and have already scrubbed my November visit to Brands.

FWIW although I didn't get around the entire Indy circuit for the HSCC meeting the number of places that one could avoid the fences (in the ansence of a media tabard) did seem particularly limited. If you discount anything from Clearways round to Paddock Hill - there may be opportunities there but I don't recall seeing many shots from those possible locations - it leaves the banking alongside the paddock between Paddock Hill and Druids, the inside of the bend at Druids plus a bit of the downhill exit from the section over the bridge, the outside of the downhill from Druids where you can just about get a shot shot of Druids exit over the top of the fencing and the open section where the GP circuit re-joins the Indy loop - but that's quite a way from the track on the Indy circuit. And a long way from anywhere else in temrs of getting there.

There are a few other brief opportunities at not especially interesting angles. I may have missed some that BH regulars know about but there can;t be many that are not compromised in some way unless one owns a very long lens. (And that is a compromise in it's own right.)

It's still possible to get some good shots of course, but not with any great variety of location so far as I can tell.

I would be delighted to be corrected if I have missed some viable opportunities.

[brands]

There are a few angles on the Indy circuit Grant, even though I usually go to meeting running on the GP loop. The November meeting I was planning on attending is on the Indy track and running 'into the dark'. Given the best spot for flash photography is now fenced off there is no point doing a 300 mile round trip.

[grantp]

Originally Posted by brands

There are a few angles on the Indy circuit Grant, even though I usually go to meeting running on the GP loop. The November meeting I was planning on attending is on the Indy track and running 'into the dark'. Given the best spot for flash photography is now fenced off there is no point doing a 300 mile round trip.

For flash - yep, you would still have the inside of Druids and the downhill section (unless things change) but certainly about 40% of the opportunity would not be viable on the basis of distance.

I would have suggested doing the night race at Donington instead ... but that's not happening.

To get to Brands is about a 300 mile round trip for me as well. Until this year I hadn't visited for almost 40 years. It's a decent enough place to go to other than the photographic challenges but at 300 miles I need a purpose for the trip rather than a speculative recreational attendance.

[jondownunder]

I was horrified to read about the new fencing. I've been p***** off enough in the past by turning up for DTM meetings to find the inside of Druids out of bounds. Then there was the new fencing at Clearways, and now this? Thanks a lot, DTM.

When I've been on the inside of Druids I've always accepted there was some risk, but never felt particularly in danger. Other places like the outside of Hawthorn Bend feel more vulnerable.

Originally Posted by Stephen H

Is this view really good enough? DTM and the top of Paddock Hill Bend, a view that should be classic. Realise it all changed in this area when changes were made to the tunnel. But surely it would not take much effort to improve the view here. A raised spectator terrace or bank. Two layers of debris fencing, a left over from the champ car one -off, and then advertising banners blocking the view directly in front and more on the infield blocking the view of Graham Hill Bend.

That has absolutely disgusted me at previous DTM meetings. You pay a small fortune to go to a meeting (one which seems to think it's as self-important as F1 with the lack of track action on race day). Then you find there are temporary advertising hoardings blocking one of the main viewing areas. Pure arrogance and disdain for spectators.

As much as I'd like to return to the DTM next year with BMW coming in (haven't been since 2008), I'm not sure I will now opportunities for photography are even more limited. Especially as I have a 470 mile round trip! As has been said, those of us who like to take photos are a small handful and sadly it doesn't really affect the circuits if we decide to stay at home.

[Stephen Green]

I think you will find the debris fence is only on the run from Paddock Hill Bend to just before Druids, there is no debris fence from Druids down to Graham Hill bend

[grantp]

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

I think you will find the debris fence is only on the run from Paddock Hill Bend to just before Druids, there is no debris fence from Druids down to Graham Hill bend

That's true Stephen. At the moment. Hopefully it will stay that way.

However the iconic shots from Brands tend to feature cars coming up the hill to druid, partly due to the backdrop and its lack of clutter. PLus for a large part of the day snappers have the benefit of the sun behind them.

Absent a media pass to get into the ideal (but presumably extremely dangerous) location on the outside of the track, the inside seemed a reasonable compromise. Not as good, but usable.

The inside of Druids itself is sort of OK but is an entirely different sort of shot. Plus you are likely to be shooting against the light and your delightful background will a conbination or selection of gravel, tyre wall and debris fencing and a few variously garbed spectators perhaps. Plus clumps of bright orange from time to time.

It is what it is but even that is not so easy to use with variety now that the fence so much of the lead in area at the top of the hill.

Cars heading out of Druids are OK but at lower speed and with a far closer backdrop (of fencing) the options for representing speed (or even movement) and minimising the dark and less than attractive backdrop are few.

Shooting down the hill does not seem to give anything especially interesting. Rear view shots are OK in small quantities. I suppose with a huge lens and a lot of luck you might get a few good 'in the mirror' shots for open cockpit cars. Maybe. Best bet would be stand back, go wide angle and try to get some sort of arty shot with a car passing through the trees.

At the recent HSCC meeting I stood on the outside of the exit for Druids, on the mound that provided a brief half chance of getting cars on the exit before the fence gets in the way. After a fw minutes I realised it must have been pretty much the same place I stood to take some pics back in 1968. Indeed where I was standing at other times to get shots of the cars at Paddock Hill was pretty much the same place I stood in 1968. Then it allowed me to shoot over the heads of the crowds. Now the location choice is to allow me to shoot over the top of the fences.

Yes, I know time moves on and things change. We can make our own decisions about where to go to take snaps or indeed whether to take snaps at all. However, as with most of life, to accept what as individuals we consider to detrimental changes with no comment at all is not terribly advisable in general. Much better for all in the long term to keep people thinking about what they are doing and why.

Were the DTM visiting BH monthly I might take a different view. Possibly.

As it happens I was chatting to someone who had been at BH for the DTM event complete with Media accreditation and targeted shots. They had originally planned to be there for the weekend but found it so uninspiring after the Saturday that they left and headed elsewhere as they already had all the shots they needed on disk.

I presume that DTM pays big money for the use of the circuit if they can dictate changes on that scale at that location.

So be it.

As brands said earlier the thought of a 300+ mile round trip for limited opportunities does not appeal much if photography is a personal objective. I can stay closer to home and get plenty of pictures of fences. And if it's the racing that appeals - most of the things I would choose to watch are just as readily available closer to home, with or without fences. At the moment. For how long .... ? Who knows?

[jondownunder]

Originally Posted by grantp

However, as with most of life, to accept what as individuals we consider to detrimental changes with no comment at all is not terribly advisable in general. Much better for all in the long term to keep people thinking about what they are doing and why.

Totally agree with that. If some people believe I'm just a whiner living in the past for standing up for things I feel passionately about, then so be it. Sadly against health and safety 'progress', it seems our voices will always be ignored (though the last thing I want to sound like is a Daily Mail reader!)

Originally Posted by Stephen Green

I think you will find the debris fence is only on the run from Paddock Hill Bend to just before Druids, there is no debris fence from Druids down to Graham Hill bend

I'm aware of that, but it's not much of a saving grace I'm afraid. The inside of Druids soon gets packed from experience, so everyone crammed into a smaller area isn't good. The DTM normally have/had that crane camera at Druids too, further limiting where we can stand at that particular meeting. Plus I always found the approach to Druids and the braking area was my preferred spot too, for the reasons grantp said. I'd take shots of the cars on the apex of Druids itself, but the exit and run down to Graham Hill Bend never seemed to offer particularly good or exciting shots (and I don't consider myself a photographer, I'm pretty clueless). Oh well.

[mickey29]

I would be surprised if DTM returns to Brands Hatch next year

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by mickey29

I would be surprised if DTM returns to Brands Hatch next year

Brands is already on the DTM's provisional calendar released last weekend despite rumours they would move to Silverstone.

[mickey29]

I have heard the Silverstone rumours, I suspect after 2 lacklustre races at Brands they might go to a circuit where the cars can really "stretch their legs"

[Samoan Attorney]

Originally Posted by mickey29

I have heard the Silverstone rumours, I suspect after 2 lacklustre races at Brands they might go to a circuit where the cars can really "stretch their legs"

And of course going to Silverstone would give DTM the chance to enjoy the "On The Buses" experience..................not to be missed.

[Stephen Green]

As has been said before, DTM ask to be on the Indy circuit because it affords the spectators a great view of the whole race.

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by jondownunder

The inside of Druids soon gets packed from experience,

Not any more! There was loads of space by the new fence at the BTCC meeting. Funny that.