Another barmy decision

[Stephen Green]

Just going back to an earlier comment about some marshals or their friends being on post in 'non orange' dress. What you may have seen were trainees having their first day trackside or, possibly accredited photographers. Normally they would be asked not to wear any clothing that clashes with flag colours and I can assure you NO-ONE is on a marshals post without first having been 'signed on' by the officials of the meeting.

The whole question od clothing clashing with flags has been argued for years and of course there is no easy solution as we, as officials, do not have any prior warning as to team colours etc.

Can I just add one point that hasn't been raised in the discussion so far. Even though you may have been on the pit wall, it is quite possible that your clothing was being mistaken by a flag marshal on another post. It is not always the easiest thing to see one post from another and so if you were in the line of sight of that particular marshal it may have impacted on the decision.

Without being rude to anyone, the simple answer is to choose a team colour that doesn't clash with a flag!

Oh, one last point...Those of you with the emergency switches that are a double pull or dual switch for electrics and extinguisher. Try truning up at the scene of an accident, out of breath from carrying a fire extinguisher, wearing welding gloves (or the equivalent) with hands that are frozen cold, and then pull the switch only once. Get my drift?

Please can we not turn this into a marshals versus driver/team threads though. You and we know we are volunteers, we both know we do it because we have a love of motor racing, we all know that we are not infallible and can make honest mistakes. One of the things I am particularly proud of is the way sites like Ten-Tenths has managed to bring together the different parts of motor racing. Kartingdad, I am sorry you feel the way you do but please try to see both sides of the equation.

[Sheila M]

PS If the three people who were asked to leave the pit wall belonged to the same team, why were there THREE of them up there in the first place? The Blue Book clearly states that only TWO team members per team are allowed in the signalling area.

[Barny]

mark ch, I wasn't having a go at marshals, but pointing out that that there are worse places for yellow/red to be worn than on a pit wall, and that drivers do take these things into account, I believe Marshals should be provided with or at least subsisdiesd with clothing but that is another thread.

[bradenc]

Arent the silverstone marshalls in black & red/orange overalls?

[Stephen Green]

Black and Orange

[Peter Mallett]

Once again I'd like to categorically state that I have never mistaken Stephen Green for a flag. Even though he wears red shoes.

[JimW]

eg letting off a cars fire extinguisher in practice that stopped near their post

Can I follow this one just a little way. I have been marshalling for a long time and still do some days on the bank (as opposed to observing or sleeping in a rescue unit). I still have trouble with the pictures used to identify the electrical cut-off and the extinguisher operating switch. I still recite to myself as I approach "E is not Electrics, it is extinguisher, think spark". From talking to others I think that I am not alone.

I would advise the addition of FIRE and ELECTRICS to the switch markings if you would like to assist us. (That could be done just after some teams have added the "required" markings!)

Of course any arrangement which has only one switch or one switch and dual operation with two sequential pulls (who has those?) is really asking for mistakes to be made.

Of course if a mistake is made, then prompt and polite apologies are in order. As for talking to drivers, it is sometimes difficult to get marshals to leave them alone until they have had a chance for a quiet curse or weep.

As for avoiding clothing in flag colours I tend to think this can be a bit overdone except for the yellow. Remember that a red flag must be waved to have any meaning for a driver. The closer the people concerned are to the flag posts the more importance this might have.

I was once asked to turn off the flashing red lights on the rear of the rescue unit because drivers might mistake them for a race stop (in the days when we did not always red flag a session or deploy a safety car in such situations). Complied naturally but did spend some time muttering about the difference between a large white van with blue beacons somewhere out on the circuit and two lights up on a gantry at the start line.

Other yellow objects can be very confusing. Last month at Oulton when I was observing at Druids I kept wondering why the Lodge-in flag marshal kept showing a yellow flag, and why this was only in alternate sessions. Got the binoculars out of the car and discovered that the nice shiny new rescue unit had a fluorescent yellow stripe at just the right height to be visible in line with the flag marshal when its turn came to park at Lodge! If the driver’s sightline had been the same as mine, I would have expected them to be confused/annoyed. (Or is that how they drive normally? )

Jim

[greenamex2]

JimW - Good idea. I used to have them both labelled with words until I replaced after the usual first scrutineer of the year oh god they have seized episode.

I promise to relabel them over the winter when I replace them.

[stevebrown]

I remember the one time I worked the pit wall as incident at Silverstone. As I always work on the bank I wasn't used to lots of people being around where I was standing. Although we were supposed to be looking after the track. we all spent most of the time asking people to remove their jackets if we thought necessary (there are flag points along the pit wall), not to smoke etc, (think what a carelessly discarded cigerette can do). Most were okay about it. Some did question the request but saw the point when explained, but, unlike kartingdad no one complained. I could see the difficult job pit marshals have to do. The pit lane is a dangerous place. I remember a very experienced pit marshal who was removed for doing his job. He removed an under-aged lad from the pits because he was larking about in the pit lane during a race. the lads father threatened to sue the club if the marshal was removed. A case of money talking I think.

Kartingdad; maybe after all your experience in motor racing you would consider spending a day marshalling on the bank or in the pits just to see what it's all about. Maybe the Gestapo poster would consider it as well. After all, suggesting complaining to the MSA is petty, unlike the job marshals do.

Steve B

[Rob29]

When I started reading this thread I thought maybe this is a script for a new Monty Python film.Marshals generaly do a great job.Idiots who smoke or bring children to the pit lane need to be dealt with.But in 50 years of going motor racing including time spent in pit lanes,I have never seriously heard of confusing shirts or jackets with flags.I certainly would not remove clothing if asked.It would be cold and I would be unlikely to be carrying a replacement. Grow up officials and look at real problems.
Maybe in this technological age it is time to think about replacing men with flags with flashing colour lights?

[kartingdad]

What!

I have never called marshalls Getsapo or considered complaining to the MSA.

I have marshalled at numerous events, I have organised night and special stage rallies, autotests so have some experience of the problems marshalls face. i found that bringing commonsense and diplomacy to a meeting as important as my jackboots.(JOKE)

[Bob Pearson]

I don't know what this is all about, I thought it was common knowledge that anyone would be asked to leave the pit wall if he/she was wearing bright red or yellow in any large amount, using an umbrella, taking photos or just plain scantily clad.
I can't remember how I know this, but I guess I just assumed everyone else did.

[kartingdad]

I agree Bob, it's dragging on a bit now.

[Stephen Green]

Time to close the thread perhaps Moderators?

[jase]

Originally posted by kartingdad
What!

I have never called marshalls Getsapo or considered complaining to the MSA.

I have marshalled at numerous events, I have organised night and special stage rallies, autotests so have some experience of the problems marshalls face. i found that bringing commonsense and diplomacy to a meeting as important as my jackboots.(JOKE)

kartingdad, you never called us pit marshals Gestapo, that was RTH, who, incidently has kept well clear of this thread. Also, we can take a joke, besides Jackboots are very comfortable for long days on your feet

Anyway, as has been said, this thread has run it's course

[Stinky]

I am going to sit on the fence here - while I can understand the team members frustration at being asked to leave the wall, I can also understand the marshall's point of view.

I was once racing an FF1600 at Silverstone when Eugene O'Brien, who was then my coach, hopped up onto the pit wall to see how the race was going, wearing a bright red jacket. I just saw the flash of red out of the corner of my eye and immediatly lifted before I realised that it couldn't have possibly been a flag. I was only off the throttle for a fraction of a second, but it demonstates the point. As drivers, we are drilled so much to observe flags that it becomes and instrictive reaction to the colours red and yellow, you react to the colour before you have time to think and justify the reaction, especially if it is moving.

It isn't just pit crew that are asked to move, I was racing at Anglesey a while back when a couple of kids in yellow coats were jumping about in the spectator area behind the marshalls post at School corner, as this is a post that is out of the drivers direct line of sight, the flash of moving yellow was very distacting.

However, this has to be treated with common sense, otherise we'll land up banning yellow and red racing cars, and all spectators in yellow or red attire.

Christine

[Sheila M]

Originally posted by Bob Pearson
I don't know what this is all about, I thought it was common knowledge that anyone would be asked to leave the pit wall if he/she was wearing bright red or yellow in any large amount, using an umbrella, taking photos or just plain scantily clad.
I can't remember how I know this, but I guess I just assumed everyone else did.

Bob, this is not so much common knowledge as common sense. What you have to remember is that, apart from the big international meetings, we pit marshals have no specific guidelines to work from, other than what we have learned over the years from other pit marshals. Having said that, I rarely ask people to leave the pit wall (unless they are under 16, smoking or are obviously spectators). I would far rather advise someone of my concerns and leave the decision to that person.

Mind you, I did once ask Jonathan Palmer what possessed him to dress his entire series in RED. They were lined up along the pit wall at Donington and if a red flag had gone out there was absolutely no chance of anyone seeing it in amongst all the red jackets.

Perhaps if the Blue Book were to contain more specific regulations for the pit lane our job would be made much easier.

[andrew_powell98]

On Saturday I was on the flag point Old hall out and we first saw the 3 people on the pitwall towards our flag point. This was well away from the flag point and not in site of any driver. However in the afternoon they were close to the chief flag point and it did cause us to have to double check wheather a flag or a yellow top is out as they were in our line of site. As for other people in bad colours, on more than 1 occasion we have asked the red cross staff to either take off the yellow jackets or sit in the observers box out of site. The flags are the only way that the marshals can talk to drivers durring races and if a driver catches a glimse of someone in red or yellow they can back off and cause an accident. It is not that the marshals are trying to be little hitlers we are not, but if a driver did see a yellow shirt near to a flag point and had an accident who is to blame?
From my experience with people that are in clashing colours they never cause any trouble when asked to move.

[stevebrown]

Originally posted by kartingdad
What!

I have never called marshalls Getsapo or considered complaining to the MSA.

I know you didn't say that. I was refering to RTH as the Gestapo poster. (Yes he's gone quiet). Sorry kartingdad if my wording made it seem you had said it.

Steve B

[F3lollipops]

eg letting off a cars fire extinguisher in practice that stopped near their post

I think that the job that the Marshals do is superb - mostly

There was one 'moment' that I witnessed though. F3 race, Croft 2002, Mark Mayall went off and the Marshals went to assist him. However, one of them got confused and thought he was going for the Electrics and hit the Extinguisher. Mark got the lot in his lap and was walking peculiarly for a while afterwards!

[johnw]

I have copied the following post of mine from the Marcus Pye thread.
___________________________________________________________
As a BMW Championship driver, I can assure you that the majority of us feel precisely the same way as Marcus. Pity we don't have a column in Autosport to express this.
On the occasions I get far enough up the field to be interviewed, I always thank the marshals. However, I have often wondered if you guys can hear anything of the interviews. (Certainly its a challenge to hear the commentary as a spectator).
Please don't assume that you are taken for granted. We all understand that we are only able to take part due to your unstinting efforts, skills and commitment.
See you at Thruxton on the 19th.
___________________________________________________________

I find it inconceivable that drivers (or hangers on) can keep criticising people who, whatever the circumstances, are governed by a clear set of instructions aimed at keeping the competitors and spectators safe. Sure, they way in which it is done is important, but let's have some empathy with the guys and girls who volunteer to do it.

I find very interesting the commonsense suggestion of relabelling the emergency switches on the race cars. We can certainly mandate this in our club regs for next year.

I'll start a new thread "Marshals good ideas" to collect anything which would help us all have a better season.

[Bob Pearson]

Hang on a moment John, I don't think for a minute that there are any quantity of drivers criticising marshals. I think the vast majority of both drivers and marshals realise that we are all doing something which isn't easy and so will never run like clockwork. I would hate for you or any other marshal to feel that there is any kind of depth of criticism of your work, just as I would hate to feel that a reciprocal distaste existed.

[Sheila M]

I find that the people I have more trouble with are the ones who are given hospitality passes and told that they will allow them "anywhere they want to go". When I have to ask these people (usually armed with small children, lit cigarettes and booze) to leave the pit lane I usually get hassle because they don't understand the dangers.

[WMS]

You get a good view from the pit wall at Oulton.With saftey in mind,should the wall be higher?

[DSM]

I used to be ambivalent about Marshals and had my share of 'disagreements' with some of them.
Then I did a day's marshalling myself and discovered the effort they put in and the responsibility they have and accept.
Now I don't argue.