What is Aston Martin up to?

[Aysedasi]

Smoke and mirrors for me.....

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

Smoke and mirrors for me.....

lot of smoke and mirror of vanity... like all no street legal cars like zonda R, FFX etc... insanely expensive limited cars working as running PR for the manufacturer and as auctions business for owners

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Ground effects it talks about, not sure that's legal in current LM hypercar? Tough to see this shelved for their (mediocre imo) F1 rebranding.

Basically I don't understand your question but I assume you're just repeating the classic "ground effects banned" saying which is a bizarre thing to say since it implied an area of fluid dynamics can be banned.

What's not allowed in most modern race cars are the underbody tunnel designs which increase ground effect but even without those and the floors being tightly regulated every winged race car uses ground effect. Even current F1 and up to 60% or more of its total downforce.

LMH underfoor rules are probably quite similar to what it has been in LMP1 era, so no tunnels.

[Pandamasque]

I think when most people say "ground effect" they really mean some kind of tunnels, sealed or not.

[TF110]

Originally Posted by deggis

Basically I don't understand your question but I assume you're just repeating the classic "ground effects banned" saying which is a bizarre thing to say since it implied an area of fluid dynamics can be banned.

What's not allowed in most modern race cars are the underbody tunnel designs which increase ground effect but even without those and the floors being tightly regulated every winged race car uses ground effect. Even current F1 and up to 60% or more of its total downforce.

LMH underfoor rules are probably quite similar to what it has been in LMP1 era, so no tunnels.

Who knows what kind of ground effects they're talking about in the PR for the Valkyrie. That's why I asked the question. Im not sure what's legal in terms of LMH rules compared to what they've done with this Aston... itd be interesting to know and to figure out why they didn't ask the aco for more lax regs to enter the car. I remember there were supposed to be a couple customer cars that quit DTM for this project.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by TF110

Who knows what kind of ground effects they're talking about in the PR for the Valkyrie. That's why I asked the question. Im not sure what's legal in terms of LMH rules compared to what they've done with this Aston...

Is this the part you mean:

Valkyrie AMR Pro also features an aggressive aerodynamic package which adds an additional 266mm in length, and thanks to mastery of underbody and overwing airflow, generates extraordinary levels of downforce.
https://media.astonmartin.com/aston-martin-valkyrie-amr-pro-the-ultimate-no-rules-hypercar/

Very ambiguous, but I read that as "not something that would be extraordinary for a modern race car". Could just mean a big diffuser.

itd be interesting to know and to figure out why they didn't ask the aco for more lax regs to enter the car. I remember there were supposed to be a couple customer cars that quit DTM for this project.

They lobbied changes, got pretty much what they wanted, committed and 7 months later with no visible progress quit. The reasons for the cancellation have little to nothing to do with the regs. 1) Deliveries of the regular Valkyrie are soon two years late 2) The stock acquisition by Stroll and shift in priorities. 3) Financial issues explaining the aforementioned points.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by TF110

Who knows what kind of ground effects they're talking about in the PR for the Valkyrie. That's why I asked the question. Im not sure what's legal in terms of LMH rules compared to what they've done with this Aston... itd be interesting to know and to figure out why they didn't ask the aco for more lax regs to enter the car. I remember there were supposed to be a couple customer cars that quit DTM for this project.

That's right, R-Motorsport was the private team that was going to enter 2 cars, along with the 2 official Astons.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by deggis

They lobbied changes, got pretty much what they wanted, committed and 7 months later with no visible progress quit. The reasons for the cancellation have little to nothing to do with the regs.

Yep. For me, this makes the news of the Valkyrie a complete 'Pah'......

[Pandamasque]

ACO's Hypercar was always supposed to feature rules directly limiting aero performance, instead of areas and methods of extracting it. So whatever extreme aero features the road Valkyrie was designed with would have to tamed to fit within the performance requirement. This was known when the LMH project was well alive, so I doubt it has anything to do with its cancellation.
At the time I expected AMR to do away with the rear wing and rely mostly on underbody aero to get the same figures others will be getting through more conventional means.
The Peugeot concept rendering features a somewhat similar idea with a low profile wing tucked away behind the wheel arches kind of like the lower portion of the 905 wing.

[Alex Langheck]

It can do a 3:20.00 - really?? Well why not prove it, in a race? Ah, they can't; well put up and shut up!!

AM should be in Sportscars, and not F1....but their owner decided otherwise.

[Pandamasque]

They can't possibly prove it in the race just like Porsche can't race their 919 Evo, which would probably be close to 3 minutes dead.

[canaglia]

AMR statement about 3.20 at LM = my VW golf filled with 10 NOS tanks can do 0-100km/h in 1.5s, shame I can't homologate it for racing.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

They can't possibly prove it in the race just like Porsche can't race their 919 Evo, which would probably be close to 3 minutes dead.

Oh that is a pretty good comparison.

Porsche did try and prove what they could do though with the runs at Spa and Nurburgring.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

ACO's Hypercar was always supposed to feature rules directly limiting aero performance, instead of areas and methods of extracting it. So whatever extreme aero features the road Valkyrie was designed with would have to tamed to fit within the performance requirement. This was known when the LMH project was well alive, so I doubt it has anything to do with its cancellation.
At the time I expected AMR to do away with the rear wing and rely mostly on underbody aero to get the same figures others will be getting through more conventional means.
The Peugeot concept rendering features a somewhat similar idea with a low profile wing tucked away behind the wheel arches kind of like the lower portion of the 905 wing.

lmao If the Valkyrie was as amazing as Aston Martin claims it to be, the ACO wouldn't have needed to compromise so hard on the LMH rules just to accommodate it, the direct result of this is the current mess we have with the LMH cars being extremely heavy and the already nerfed LMP2s being so close to them.

The Valkyrie project has a long history of dubious and ridiculous claims about the car's performance with nothing to back it up other than their BS publicity statements.

[Aysedasi]

Spot on.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

lmao If the Valkyrie was as amazing as Aston Martin claims it to be, the ACO wouldn't have needed to compromise so hard on the LMH rules just to accommodate it, the direct result of this is the current mess we have with the LMH cars being extremely heavy and the already nerfed LMP2s being so close to them.

The Valkyrie project has a long history of dubious and ridiculous claims about the car's performance with nothing to back it up other than their BS publicity statements.

Come on, even the road version has way better power to weight than a current LMH, and likely a lot more efficient aero. LMH aero efficiency level was intentionally set low so that manufacturers could make pretty supercar-looking cars.

Compared to LMP1, this Valkyrie is a larger car with a larger heavier engine, but with a lot of power. And that's how Hypercars were supposed to be. After AMR pulling out, the power was dropped dramatically, but not the weight/size, so that LMH could be on the similar level to LMDh.

It always makes me laugh how people seem to think that LMPs have the best aero for any car of that size. Luckily Porsche proved that it's not even remotely true. With very minimal changes, which were though outside LMP1 regulations, 919 Evo demolished the 919 record at Spa. Imagine what Porsche could achieve with a ground-up redesign of the chassis with no thought of LMP1 regulations?

LMP1/2 car is what happens when you develop a sportscar for decades, while the rule makers amend the rules to stifle your development here and there, so you then have develop a less efficient compromise to exploit a loophole here, a loophole there etc. etc. etc. And then the rulebook gets thicker and cars start to look more and more odd with every passing year, and more similar to each other, because now the rule book defines more and more of their design. Just like in Formula1. And then the same engineers can throw the rulebook away and develop a far more efficient car for billionaires to play with.

This is why I think rules should be rewritten from scratch every decade or so.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

lmao If the Valkyrie was as amazing as Aston Martin claims it to be, the ACO wouldn't have needed to compromise so hard on the LMH rules just to accommodate it, the direct result of this is the current mess we have with the LMH cars being extremely heavy and the already nerfed LMP2s being so close to them.

I don't even want to defend Aston but that just doesn't add up. In fact the best power-to-weight ratio was during Aston's tenure. The current and final figures are the direct result of the LMDh convergence.

The power/weight changed from the initial 520kw/1040kg to 585kw/1100kg during Aston and then back to 500kw/1030kg. (minimum weights without BoP) Besides these, the rules haven't changed much.

There was some speculation or might have been directly from Vasselon that they're now actually running at 520 kw.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Come on, even the road version has way better power to weight than a current LMH, and likely a lot more efficient aero. LMH aero efficiency level was intentionally set low so that manufacturers could make pretty supercar-looking cars.

Compared to LMP1, this Valkyrie is a larger car with a larger heavier engine, but with a lot of power. And that's how Hypercars were supposed to be. After AMR pulling out, the power was dropped dramatically, but not the weight/size, so that LMH could be on the similar level to LMDh.

It always makes me laugh how people seem to think that LMPs have the best aero for any car of that size. Luckily Porsche proved that it's not even remotely true. With very minimal changes, which were though outside LMP1 regulations, 919 Evo demolished the 919 record at Spa. Imagine what Porsche could achieve with a ground-up redesign of the chassis with no thought of LMP1 regulations?

LMP1/2 car is what happens when you develop a sportscar for decades, while the rule makers amend the rules to stifle your development here and there, so you then have develop a less efficient compromise to exploit a loophole here, a loophole there etc. etc. etc. And then the rulebook gets thicker and cars start to look more and more odd with every passing year, and more similar to each other, because now the rule book defines more and more of their design. Just like in Formula1. And then the same engineers can throw the rulebook away and develop a far more efficient car for billionaires to play with.

This is why I think rules should be rewritten from scratch every decade or so.

It has better aero than an LMP1 based on what exactly? Because it looks really 'extreme'? Because Adrian Newey had a hand on it? Pardon me if I'm just a tad bit skeptical without seeing a shred of evidence of the car's capabilities, especially when they keep making ridiculous claims designed to grab headlines (such as when they were initially claiming it would be faster than an F1 car) and especially when Andy Palmer is in charge of the project

Originally Posted by deggis

I don't even want to defend Aston but that just doesn't add up. In fact the best power-to-weight ratio was during Aston's tenure. The current and final figures are the direct result of the LMDh convergence.

The power/weight changed from the initial 520kw/1040kg to 585kw/1100kg during Aston and then back to 500kw/1030kg. (minimum weights without BoP) Besides these, the rules haven't changed much.

There was some speculation or might have been directly from Vasselon that they're now actually running at 520 kw.

Don't take it from me, straight from DSC: http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...or-racing.html

The Valkyrie Hypercar programme is cited by many involved in the Hypercar class as the key to the current specification of the class, the increased minimum weight over the initially envisaged levels a product of incorporating the ‘roadcar’-based nature of the project, a legacy that several prominent parties involved in the class regard as a significant negative.

[deggis]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

Don't take it from me, straight from DSC: http://www.dailysportscar.com/2021/0...or-racing.html

My figures are from the rulebook (the three published versions of it since 2018) so I'm going to believe them and to me the timeline is clear.

The only other publicized power-weight combo is 520kw/980kg but its only in the very first ACO presentation slides from June 2018 and by the time the first rulebook was finalized late 2018 and published the weight had been bumped to 1040 kg. Even if Aston was already secretly in discussions at this point still this version had none of the production-based-car provisions that appeared later.

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by deggis

My figures are from the rulebook (the three published versions of it since 2018) so I'm going to believe them and to me the timeline is clear.

The only other publicized power-weight combo is 520kw/980kg but its only in the very first ACO presentation slides from June 2018 and by the time the first rulebook was finalized late 2018 and published the weight had been bumped to 1040 kg. Even if Aston was already secretly in discussions at this point still this version had none of the production-based-car provisions that appeared later.

I'm not really seeing where's the conflict between what you and DSC are saying, Aston Martin was actively involved in influencing the development of what became the LMH rules throughout 2018, it's not really a secret.

This quote is from March 2019:
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/0...on-martin.html

We have been an active participant in the development of the new regs over the last year or so

[TF110]

I think the hypercar name was evidence enough to know that they were convinced by a big name that it was the way to go and it'd be road-car like. Im convinced if Aston Martin doesn't say they will enter with a modified upcoming version of their hypercar then the rules would be quite different.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by TF110

I think the hypercar name was evidence enough to know that they were convinced by a big name that it was the way to go and it'd be road-car like. Im convinced if Aston Martin doesn't say they will enter with a modified upcoming version of their hypercar then the rules would be quite different.

Are you saying Aston Martin is singlehandedly responsible for the existence of Hypercar category as a whole?

Originally Posted by deggis

There was some speculation or might have been directly from Vasselon that they're now actually running at 520 kw.

I think that's official. 500 at Le Mans and 520 kw at other tracks.

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

It has better aero than an LMP1 based on what exactly? Because it looks really 'extreme'?

Based on not being constrained by very prescriptive regulations designed to slow the cars down by carefully and meticulously negating decades of aerodynamic know-how.

[Pandamasque]

More teasing...

[canaglia]

hope they could be back in lmdh also because thinking about, aston martin was in some way the pioneer of modern dpi/lmdh concept...

what actually was lola-aston? an lmp1 spec carbon tub made by a third party supplier + a road derivated engine + a modified bodywork... that's basically dpi formula.

[Pandamasque]

Okay, now I get it... that post (image) was playing to the hype regarding today's England vs Italy football game. Moving on.