[Team] Ferrari: in F1

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Yeah, restricting aero works so well. That's why they tried it in 2009 and 2014 and everybody loved it.

They need to restrict the correct areas or change how the cars produce downforce. You’re always going to get engineers that can outsmart the rules but restrict wing size and number of elements and increase aero from the underside of the car would be a good start

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

I have him on ignore.

Glad I’m not the only on you have on ignore...tbh though it would be better if you debate your points rather than having a brain fart and refusing to accept other people’s views and simply ignoring them

[wnut]

Originally Posted by EffectiveSprinkles

Yeah, restricting aero works so well. That's why they tried it in 2009 and 2014 and everybody loved it.

This is one of the recurring F1 myths!

The Overtaking Working Group (OWG) determined before the rule changes instituted in 2009 that the biggest obstacle to overtaking and following was the amount of downforce generated by the cars and the resultant wake turbulence. The OWG’s efforts were unsuccessful because the teams managed to claw back an estimated 85% of the downforce reduction by the beginning of the 2009 season, using the larger wings allowed and a loophole that allowed double diffusers.
In 2014 the FIA allowed the introduction of hybrid ERS power units, the weight limit of the cars was gradually increased year on year until it had increased by around 200 kg by 2014 to compensate for the increased mass of the required KERS systems and batteries, this configuration required more downforce to run similar lap times. The rules were changed in 2017, allowing wider tyres and bigger wings to generate more downforce to compensate for the heavy cars which in 2007 now weighed 720kg.
In short the OWG identified the cause of the overtaking problems as too much downforce and wake turbulence, F1 has never introduced effective regulation to deal with the problem of excessive downforce!

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

They need to restrict the correct areas or change how the cars produce downforce. You’re always going to get engineers that can outsmart the rules but restrict wing size and number of elements and increase aero from the underside of the car would be a good start

Spot on.

The first thing Ferrari need: To hire a skilled and proven chief strategist.

The second: A skilled and proven chief driver any chance?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Spot on.

The first thing Ferrari need: To hire a skilled and proven chief strategist.

The second: A skilled and proven chief driver any chance?

The third, some urgent surgery to repair the bullet holes in the feet......

[S griffin]

They need Leclerc to not waste this chance and prove he is the future

[loon]

Originally Posted by S griffin

They need Leclerc to not waste this chance and prove he is the future

not really, if he fails they can always sign someone else, it's just business baby

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by S griffin

They need Leclerc to not waste this chance and prove he is the future

I think this is the wrong way round;if Leclerc is to have any kind of career he needs them to stop acting like Ferrari in the years when the Todt/Brawn have not been running the outfit.Apart from the blip that accompanied the Schumacher era,they have always been a bit Italian in the way they do things.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I think this is the wrong way round;if Leclerc is to have any kind of career he needs them to stop acting like Ferrari in the years when the Todt/Brawn have not been running the outfit.Apart from the blip that accompanied the Schumacher era,they have always been a bit Italian in the way they do things.

Ferrari genius at work circa 2008.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cHuhgC9tEyo

[Adam43]

Ferrari will stay in F1 as they use it as a marketing tool. For instance they, today, launched a special F1 edition road car.

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by Adam43

Ferrari will stay in F1 as they use it as a marketing tool. For instance they, today, launched a special F1 edition road car.

Absolutely right Adam Ferrari will stay as long as it serves their purpose, it must be still doing that or they would be gone in a flash...

[wnut]

Explanation for what has happened to Ferrari performance:

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/23137...-time-low.html

No Marchionnre to mediate between Arrivibene and Binotto.

[greentrumpet]

Nothing to do with the weight of that extra sensor the FIA forced on them then?

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by wnut

Explanation for what has happened to Ferrari performance:

https://www.gpblog.com/en/news/23137...-time-low.html

No Marchionnre to mediate between Arrivibene and Binotto.

And that explains a lack of performance? No, I don't get it.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

And that explains a lack of performance? No, I don't get it.

Perhaps not in the outright pace of the car, although the latest rear suspension upgrade seems have been a complete dog, but certainly in terms of the strategy blunders we have seen lately.
If however the various parties are doing everything in their power to discredit one another, then anything is possible.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by greentrumpet

Nothing to do with the weight of that extra sensor the FIA forced on them then?

Are you seriously saying the sensors are particularly heavy and maybe the car is now overweight? I find that hard to believe.

Richard

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Are you seriously saying the sensors are particularly heavy and maybe the car is now overweight? I find that hard to believe.

Richard

Nope, he is saying he doesn't buy the reason advanced, and the actual reason is that the FIA has stopped Ferrari doing something with the sensor.

Personally, I don't get how Ferrari can be stopped doing something that wasn't specified in the regulations, and if they were why does the FIA not just come out and specify what everyone is now not allowed to do?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

Nope, he is saying he doesn't buy the reason advanced, and the actual reason is that the FIA has stopped Ferrari doing something with the sensor.

Personally, I don't get how Ferrari can be stopped doing something that wasn't specified in the regulations, and if they were why does the FIA not just come out and specify what everyone is now not allowed to do?

Hmm, well I don't quite see him saying what you say he is saying. He explicitly calls out the "weight" of the extra sensor. Maybe he can respond and clarify.

But to your comment about FIA, Ferrari, sensors and exactly what is going on. It has been somewhat discussed to death and a touchy subject because depending upon your position, you may be saying Ferrari is cheating.

To expand upon my prior comments, I agree very much with the Scarbs video that was linked earlier. He touches on this, but in general this entire engine regulation formula has checks built into the system to allow for extensive monitoring. Be it energy flows within the hybrid system, fuel flow monitoring for the ICE and torque sensors on the output of the entire system. So the thought/plan has always been that we (FIA) can monitor exactly what is going on, with the goal being this is used to spot cheating. We see all the inputs and outputs, what happens inside is up to team.

My theory (pure speculation) is that Ferrari has done something different and in a way that the existing sensor setup might be blind to a novel solution. Given that the FIA is fully aware of each team's general technical solution it is likely that only Ferrari has the unusual setup. Whoever asked FIA to clarify (Mercedes?) probably has a rough understanding of what Ferrari's setup is and also may understand that there might be a way it can be exploited. The fact that something could be exploited and not detected by existing sensors setup may have been news to the FIA.

As to your final point as to why the FIA just doesn't publicly clarify things (don't do this or that), I expect the issue is that... First, FIA was blind to whatever may or may not have happened previously, Second, with additional sensors in place they have probably not detected anything nefarious, Third, without any evidence to the contrary, Ferrari hasn't done anything wrong and a clarification would expose a legal Ferrari solution in which they wish to keep secret. There may yet be other legal advantages to whatever they are doing.

I expect Ferrari has agreed to allow for the extra sensors (to meet the FIAs need to feel they are able to monitor all energy flow questions) but with the condition that the FIA not spill the beans as to what exactly is going on. This is why Ferrari has made noise recently about questions of why details are seeping out around the extra sensor. In short, they are questioning if the FIA is keeping up their end of the deal.

If... another manufactures gives indication to the FIA that they plan to do something similar, then at that point it may no longer be a Ferrari specific situation and then there might be a general clarification as to the need by the FIA to have additional sensors for everyone. And the extra sensor(s) may only make sense if a given design is used. This could even show up at some point in the future (for 2019 or 2020). But for now, I expect the FIA feels they are getting what they want (extra monitoring data) and Ferrari is getting to keep their secret sauce... secret.

Now the obvious questions is... Was Ferrari doing something shady previously that was missed by the FIA sensor system and now that the FIA has a new sensor they have stopped and that this is the reason for an apparently loss of performance... I expect only Ferrari knows if this is true or not. I have no opinion one way or the other. And if this is true, and the FIA was blind to this, they have no evidence to make accusations.

Richard

[EffectiveSprinkles]

Best post on the subject I have read so far. Well put, Richard.

[Aysedasi]

Yes, I agree. Sounds pretty much on the money to me.

[Richard C]

Thank you both for the positive feedback!

Richard

[Akrapovic]

Brilliant post.

I would add that given the ECUs are standard, sealed components, that adds another layer of difficulty in fooling the system.

[Adam43]

Enjoyable read. Great context given for the principles involved and also for what is known and what is speculation. Thanks from me too.

I would also add that the addition of the sensors did not coincide with the loss of form, which was May (source: Mark Hughes).

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Thank you both for the positive feedback!

Richard

Thank you Richard, you cleared up a number of things for me, great post.

[wnut]

Explanations of Ferrari's top speed reduction from Mark Hughes.

https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/o...engine-mystery

No extra sensor ever fitted.

Ferrari running high mileage engine did not wish to risk it, Singapore is the least power sensitive circuit so engine turned down, Sochi increased tyre temps needed more wing.
Then in Japan Mercedes appeared to find a trick of their own and were running 312kph through speed trap in free practice 1 compared to Ferrari at 302, then Merc turned their engines down and ran 306 to 307kph.