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Old 26 Feb 2021, 09:45 (Ref:4037088)   #1906
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
Post #1900 asks a question about V4 hybrids and i wouldn't be too surprised if they came to pass.After all,Porsche did quite well at Le Mans with just that configuration.I wouldn't mind if they were 1 litre as engines keep creeping up the efficiency range.I have seen the Fiat S76 at Goodwood a couple of times and while I find it truly spectacular,I don't suppose you would need anything like the 28 litres it's four cylinder had to arrive at the same power output with a modern engine. Like it or not,I am fairly sure that pure IC motorsports will be confined to historic and club level events before too many more years pass.
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Old 26 Feb 2021, 12:41 (Ref:4037130)   #1907
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Do we really need V4 hybrids? If V6 Hybrids didn't bring in the manufacturers, I'm not sure V4 would either. Most manufacturers have seen the WEC and LM as better places to showcase their tech, although sadly quite a few have pulled out in recent years.

It's clear to me F1 needs to think carefully where it goes next with it's engine regs. Too often people feel nostalgic to older racing cars and we need something to excite the current generation of fans. Besides I don't think IC engines are dead in the water yet and I'm sure they will always have a place in racing, especially as they are cheaper to build and run than hybrids. F1 needs to make sure it doesn't rely too much on manufacturers. They will always come and go when they please and I am sure they will be more attracted if it's cheaper anyways
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Old 26 Feb 2021, 13:32 (Ref:4037134)   #1908
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I love how you actually expect an answer from this particular poster. That's not how they operate. It's not possible to keep up a steady 50-100 post per day flow if distracted by actual conversation .

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Old 26 Feb 2021, 16:37 (Ref:4037164)   #1909
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financial numbers being reported and FOM have reported a loss of 386m for 2020.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...aign=widget-22

no surprise really.

the budget cap, carry over the chassis and the looming engine freeze will help teams reduce costs but it might take years to recover after the pandemic so what will be the knock on effect?

going forward, how much can we rely on the manus to have the same interests as the sport, particularly as road car design and function moves towards automation and infotainment. so how will F1 hedge itself against that possible future?

the return of cheaper/older spec purpose built race engine could allow for independents to reenter the sport and without the manus being allowed to drive up the costs then those independents might have a chance to succeed. and thus be willing to stick around in case the big manus leave.

with a careful eye on how RB will manage the former Honda program but there decision (although i think it still may be a negotiation tactic) to go at it themselves may be indicative of a paradigm shift

we roughly equate the start of the manu era being 2000 onwards. with Honda, BMW and Toyota joining the grid and Mercs gradual build up to works status.

now with RB's new in house approach, Merc selling (part of) its stake, Mclaren back on the rise, niche auto brands returning, small teams winning races...the shift away from manus may have already begun.

older engines may be exactly what the covid doctor ordered!
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Old 26 Feb 2021, 18:21 (Ref:4037201)   #1910
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P38 in workshop has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
That makes a good case for declaring Super Formula as the new top series.What happens when,or if,costs need to be further reduced?Do we see 500 person workforces reduced to 60 person teams with the people not needed over the winter laid off after the final race?It used to happen in the "good old days" of off the shelf engines.Motorsport generally has to adapt and even NASCAR is adding an auxiliary electric drive module.If the burning of hydrocarbons becomes too much of a toxic theme for the sponsors to support it only leaves the distribution from FOM as a source of income to be tapped.They did a bit of shuffling of assets last year if I remember correctly so that they had the latitude to raise a bit more capital.The possibility of doing it on a regular basis is rather remote.Its quite good fun for a bunch of enthusiasts to speculate based on their preferences it is quite another to put together a business plan that would support the employment of the existing workforce of Liberty and all the teams.If it fails you just move the spreadsheet to the recycle bin but somebody has to do the same thing for real.All the desires of hearing V8's or V12's won't actually put the money in the bank to pay the bills.A few years of racing a more electrically biased hybrid with a turbo V4 as a push to pass option might keep the money flowing.
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Old 26 Feb 2021, 18:28 (Ref:4037206)   #1911
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Originally Posted by S griffin View Post
Do we really need V4 hybrids?
In answer to the first part - do we really need any particular form of engine?

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If V6 Hybrids didn't bring in the manufacturers, I'm not sure V4 would either. [...] F1 needs to make sure it doesn't rely too much on manufacturers.
And so we reach the point - if F1 is not reliant on manufacturers, why does the engine have to appeal to manufacturers?
Or to put it another way - why is a V4 (or I4) hybrid a bad choice?
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Old 26 Feb 2021, 22:11 (Ref:4037234)   #1912
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Or to put it another way - why is a V4 (or I4) hybrid a bad choice?
Because it's not exciting.

The Polestar P1 has received a truly dismal market response. All you hear is that is that the Polestar is too expensive for a four-cylinder hybrid sportscar, that the vehicle is boring etc. Meanwhile, the archaic six-cylinder Porsche 718 GTS receives extremely high levels of hype and praise despite also having an extremely high price.

Do you really want to back the unsaleable hybrid cause? The market just cannot seem to appreciate the superiority of the Polestar over the Porsche, for whatever reason.

The Polestar receives comments like "you don't always get the electric power when you press the throttle, the four-cylinder sounds bad, yada yada yada"... As a hybrid, it's technical superiority is not appreciated in the sportscar market place.
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Old Yesterday, 11:37 (Ref:4037293)   #1913
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Because it's not exciting.
What I'm not seeing yet in any argument is why a V6, V8, V10, V12 - hybrid or NA - would make F1 any more exciting than a V4 hybrid.

The poster I was asking the question of has stated:

'We canít keep going with the current engines. They havenít exactly bought in loads of manufacturers.'
'We hopefully wonít have the V6 hybrids anymore.'
'Hopefully the next [engines] will be more powerful.'
'I think we need to focus more on F1 power units.'
'Let's get back to F1 now and how to make cars fast and exciting'


But what I'm asking for is a reason why V4 engines are not able to produce exciting F1 races. To many, there is no such thing as an exciting engine in it's own right - the engine that is powering an exciting race is, at that point in time, the most exciting engine in the world.
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Old Yesterday, 13:18 (Ref:4037306)   #1914
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What I'm not seeing yet in any argument is why a V6, V8, V10, V12 - hybrid or NA - would make F1 any more exciting than a V4 hybrid.
I would say that perception is reality. That there is a part of F1 fandom that equates larger cylinder counts to some form of (for the lack of a better word) machismo. And that while performance counts, other factors also count as well.

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