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Old 2 Oct 2018, 10:58 (Ref:3854016)   #126
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Anyway as DC said even though he pulled over for Mika in Australia that time, he still got his win bonus.
Think he followed that with ‘I am a Scot, after all’........

Have to agree with Akrapovic’s take, and also agree that the discussion is not going to change anything!
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 12:40 (Ref:3854033)   #127
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The most confusing thing about this whole shambles is everyone (fans and media) acting like this is the first time it's happened, and wasn't a forgone conclusion from the moment Bottas put it on pole.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 12:48 (Ref:3854038)   #128
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The most confusing thing about this whole shambles is everyone (fans and media) acting like this is the first time it's happened, and wasn't a forgone conclusion from the moment Bottas put it on pole.
The problem is that Mercedes adopted a holier than thou approach and received a lot of credit for their stated position of "allowing their drivers to race". This order clearly showed just hypocritical that position was, and I believe this is why they are taking strain for the decision they made.

If they had just shut up when the likes of Ferrari made the same decision, nobody would be pointing fingers at them, they are liars and this is the problem!
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 13:29 (Ref:3854051)   #129
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The problem is that Mercedes adopted a holier than thou approach and received a lot of credit for their stated position of "allowing their drivers to race". This order clearly showed just hypocritical that position was, and I believe this is why they are taking strain for the decision they made.

If they had just shut up when the likes of Ferrari made the same decision, nobody would be pointing fingers at them, they are liars and this is the problem!
It's only a problem because we've made it one......
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 13:39 (Ref:3854060)   #130
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It's only a problem because we've made it one......
Preciscely.

Boo! Mercedes at the bottom of the F1 Constructors Trustworthiness Championship table! Boooo!
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 13:48 (Ref:3854065)   #131
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Yep, right now that's a given. But TW will be content to take that.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 14:39 (Ref:3854081)   #132
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20+ one car teams....boom problem solved!
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 16:45 (Ref:3854119)   #133
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Bottas asking a question doesn't change how sporting or not sporting the decision is.

Bottas asked the question to make a point. He has to follow orders, he can't really say no otherwise Ocon, or whoever is next in the Mercedes revolving door of unused development drivers is, will take his seat. So he has to follow them without making too much fuss, but asking questions shows he's doing what he's told, but isn't happy.

The actual sporting side of things isn't changed by that radio call. The decision was still made for the same reason, with the same outcome.

I'm not saying I like team orders, or they're good or whatever, I'm just saying if you think this is any different to how F1 has ever been at any point, then you need to do some reading on history rather than assuming it fits your narrative of what the good old days were like. This is how it's always been. Whether or not it's time for that to change is open to discussion, but this isn't a new problem.
I don't have a narrative of what the good old days were like and of course, there have always been team orders because of what's ultimately best for the team but this is about how those orders were carried out and how that decision comes across. I think Bottas asking the question, does bring in an element of how sporting or unsporting the decision was, otherwise why ask it and though this wasn't as blatant as Schumacher in Austria 2002 it still has those undertones.

If there were such a thing as the good old days, I wonder if this matter would have been handled in a less obvious and clumsy fashion? If Mercedes had made a pre-race arrangement with Bottas that would have been fine but they clearly didn't and that was the mistake they made and why Mercedes/TW have come in for a lot of criticism.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 16:58 (Ref:3854121)   #134
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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...hange/3187182/

"I don't think anyone could have foreseen what happened here," said FIA race director Charlie Whiting in Sochi.



If this isn't damning evidence with how far up their own ass the F1 rulemakers are I don't know what is.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 17:07 (Ref:3854125)   #135
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Scrapping grid penalties for component changes would be a good start and deduct constructor points instead. Plainly ridiculous for penalising a driver for having a blown engine in the previous race or needing to change a gearbox - drivers don't break those sort of components these days.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 17:17 (Ref:3854129)   #136
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The new grid penalty system didn’t work obviously. Mind you I don’t think we should concentrate too much on qualifying, we need to improve the racing first
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 18:13 (Ref:3854136)   #137
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https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...hange/3187182/

"I don't think anyone could have foreseen what happened here," said FIA race director Charlie Whiting in Sochi.
how is it not predictable when tires and engines allotment rules are in place...particularity as the season nears its end and penalties abound.

how is this not entirely foreseeable and/or expected?

surely this must just be a badly used/placed quote by the website
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 18:19 (Ref:3854137)   #138
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"This was not predictable." says man in charge of making sure stupid predictable events do not happen.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 19:52 (Ref:3854165)   #139
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I will pile on and say it was predictable. I will also say to be careful of knee-jerk tweaks. Because if they didn't see this coming, they will also not see whatever unintended and unfavorable consequence that will come about due to their "fix".

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Old 2 Oct 2018, 20:29 (Ref:3854177)   #140
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The new grid penalty system didn’t work obviously. Mind you I don’t think we should concentrate too much on qualifying, we need to improve the racing first
No not the qualifying in itself. I think the format is fine. It may need a few tweaks, not a major overhaul.
What may need improvement is the way the grid is assembled after qualifying.
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Old 2 Oct 2018, 20:31 (Ref:3854178)   #141
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I will pile on and say it was predictable.
I agree (as most people on here seem to do)

And even though it didn't work ut for Renault, I think that was a smart thing to do.

Or maybe even better: go out in Q2 on a set of ultrasoft, not hypersoft, or even soft.
Suppose someone has a problem, and one of your cars will be in Q3 and can still avoid the hypersofts.
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Old 3 Oct 2018, 07:21 (Ref:3854230)   #142
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Forget all this nonsense about hypersofts, supersofts , hyper-mega softs and the rest. Nobody is remotely interested in tyres, let alone (retch) 'tyre management- - which means driving slowly.



God knows why Pirelli thinks being associated with a sport where a set of its products is binned after 15minutes use . No reason why we can't dispense with the whole pantomime of tyre strategy and pit stops - just make some tyres which can last for 90minutes. That would impress me a lot more than the present grotesque consumption of tyres - which can amount to 12 tyres in 90 minutes . Great advert for the sport , guys ...
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Old 3 Oct 2018, 07:49 (Ref:3854232)   #143
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Jim Clark won four races in a row on the same set of Dunlops back in 1960s. Shows you can make tyres last longer
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Old 3 Oct 2018, 07:53 (Ref:3854234)   #144
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Jim Clark won four races in a row on the same set of Dunlops back in 1960s. Shows you can make tyres last longer
With almost no force going through the tyres compared to now and producing a lot less grip.
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Old 3 Oct 2018, 08:15 (Ref:3854236)   #145
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Jim Clark won four races in a row on the same set of Dunlops back in 1960s. Shows you can make tyres last longer
Yeah and my old Yaris went from 1998 to 2015 on the original set of brake pads. Try harder F1!
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Old 3 Oct 2018, 08:26 (Ref:3854237)   #146
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Originally Posted by coppice View Post
Forget all this nonsense about hypersofts, supersofts , hyper-mega softs and the rest. Nobody is remotely interested in tyres, let alone (retch) 'tyre management- - which means driving slowly.

God knows why Pirelli thinks being associated with a sport where a set of its products is binned after 15minutes use . No reason why we can't dispense with the whole pantomime of tyre strategy and pit stops - just make some tyres which can last for 90minutes. That would impress me a lot more than the present grotesque consumption of tyres - which can amount to 12 tyres in 90 minutes . Great advert for the sport , guys ...

This is just one of the reasons that my interest in F1 has waned in the last few years.

It annoys me intensely that the FIA believe that F1 should be at the forefront of demonstrating how "green" the sport can be by imposing fuel saving and PU limits per season, but on the other hand they are quite happy mandating that their chosen tyre supplier has to transport multiple containers around the world, both by road and by sea.

One defeats the other.
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Old 3 Oct 2018, 08:38 (Ref:3854239)   #147
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I guess it’s the problem with this one tyre formula, they have no reason to have a tyre that lasts long, they have nothing to compete against
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Old 3 Oct 2018, 08:47 (Ref:3854242)   #148
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With almost no force going through the tyres compared to now and producing a lot less grip.

Do really think that Pirelli can't make tyres last for a whole race, or even for half of one? It is nothing to do with available technology , except in the sense that some idiot in the F1 hierarchy (and God knows there are plenty to choose from ) commissioned Pirelli to make self destructing tyres .



Only F1 could be so up its own backside stupid - nearly everyone regards tyre longevity as a key criterion, even the only criterion , in their choice of tyre . So what does poor Pirelli have to do? Make tyres with all the longevity of toilet roll.



It would be less absurd to give each team two sets of tyres for the season and say-' look after these guys , it's all you'e getting..'
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Old 3 Oct 2018, 09:51 (Ref:3854254)   #149
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Do really think that Pirelli can't make tyres last for a whole race, or even for half of one? It is nothing to do with available technology , except in the sense that some idiot in the F1 hierarchy (and God knows there are plenty to choose from ) commissioned Pirelli to make self destructing tyres .



Only F1 could be so up its own backside stupid - nearly everyone regards tyre longevity as a key criterion, even the only criterion , in their choice of tyre . So what does poor Pirelli have to do? Make tyres with all the longevity of toilet roll.



It would be less absurd to give each team two sets of tyres for the season and say-' look after these guys , it's all you'e getting..'
I do think Pirelli could do it. I just don't think a tyre from the 60s is any sort of proof of that. Normally that's like comparing apples and oranges, but it's more like comparing apples and baseball bats.

Some of the tyre issues are absolutely F1s fault, but some of it is Pirelli. F1 may ask for a tyre with a high wear rate, but they don't ask for inconsistent tyres with a high failure rate. The inconsistencies in the tyre are something Blancpain and PWC struggle with as well.
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Old 3 Oct 2018, 10:19 (Ref:3854258)   #150
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Some of the tyre issues are absolutely F1s fault, but some of it is Pirelli. F1 may ask for a tyre with a high wear rate, but they don't ask for inconsistent tyres with a high failure rate. The inconsistencies in the tyre are something Blancpain and PWC struggle with as well.

I think that the blame for that can also be laid at the feet of the FIA, because it is they who forbid proper tyre testing. Pirelli can only do so much working blind.
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