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Old 15 Jun 2019, 09:47 (Ref:3910308)   #1
Taxi645
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Taxi645 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridTaxi645 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Let them race or better driving standards?

Quite a few people have argued that we should let them race more. Too many penalties would be cause by strict appliance of the rules.

Another argument would be that if the drivers practised higher driving standards, stewards would have to apply penalties as much.


Personally I have been a very fanatic sim-racer and I've always strived to leave a generous car width on track even if the was only a tiny portion of car next to me. The result was almost always that the fight for position lasted multiple corners. One corners outside be becomes the next corners inside. Often I couldn't get the pass done and had to try again.

For me that is just so much fun to do or watch than just see drivers just barging passed claiming "it was my corner" that we so much nowadays. Riciardo and Max's along side over several corners a few years ago was a prime example of what good racing should be like.


So in my opinion I'm not so sure the let them race argument leads to better racing perse. I think higher racing standards surely would.


What do you all think?


P.S. For higher racing standards to actually work cars obviously need to be able to do actual qheel to wheel battling. Which current aero rules makes hard.
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Old 15 Jun 2019, 10:14 (Ref:3910310)   #2
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The problem is very rarely these days is an accident seen as a racing incident. It seems even the slightest unintentional contact is penalised. Really I think at times the drivers so sort it out between them and let the officials punish unsporting/dangerous behaviour
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Old 15 Jun 2019, 12:51 (Ref:3910339)   #3
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The harder the cars are to drive the more willing i will be to forgive mistakes.
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Old 16 Jun 2019, 08:56 (Ref:3911709)   #4
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This is the kind of racing I love to see more of:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tBrSSiEKjE


Too often it is: take the inside, brake late, leave no room on the outside for the competitor on the exit and that's that.
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Old 16 Jun 2019, 20:57 (Ref:3912281)   #5
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Let’s first get cars that can provide that sort of racing. The aero increase in 2017 made things worse. Obviously some drivers won’t give it up so easily
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Old 16 Jun 2019, 22:35 (Ref:3912309)   #6
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Just let them race. Don't punish sincere, moderate mistakes.

Have a sturdy framework of rules but don't worry if not every eventuality is covered.

The thing with discretion getting more input is that it gives rise to greater inconsistency and thus wider controversy including coach potato accusations they are fixing it for one party or another.

My view is you ride the rapids of public controversy.

Sporting bodies tend to be frightened of controversy because of the sheer volcanic nature of instantaneous social media outcries. They shouldn't be. So let 'em race.
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Old 17 Jun 2019, 07:21 (Ref:3912373)   #7
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Your sim racing is for fun. They are racing for a team that wants to win points/championships to earn money. That changes perspectives and expectations quite a bit.

They are not expected to leave more room so the racing is more fun, they are expected to stay in front/get in front for more money.
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Old 17 Jun 2019, 13:39 (Ref:3912432)   #8
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Your sim racing is for fun. They are racing for a team that wants to win points/championships to earn money. That changes perspectives and expectations quite a bit.

They are not expected to leave more room so the racing is more fun, they are expected to stay in front/get in front for more money.
You're right Kempi. Very valid point. Though now not leaving room is seldom penalized so will most likely give the desired result. If itvwould be stronger enforced that might be different, al thought that might indeed be doubtfull.
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Old 18 Jun 2019, 16:04 (Ref:3912688)   #9
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The rules should be much simpler.

If a driver gains an obvious advantage then he should be penalised.
Vettel made a mistake, but it certainly didn't give him an advantage.

Whether or not he rejoined the track in an unsafe manner, or left enough racing room, is a completely different question and highly subjective at that.

Rules should be black and white.Did he gain an advantage?........No.
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Old 18 Jun 2019, 22:46 (Ref:3912763)   #10
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Rules should be black and white.Did he gain an advantage?........No.
YES. by rejoining the circuit in an unsafe manor he forced his competitor off the track and onto the brakes. By rejoining unsafely onto the racing line he denied his competitor a chance to overtake, which if he had joined more safely either off line or more slowly his competitor would have had.

So did Vettel gain an advantage, most certainly yes.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 07:00 (Ref:3912805)   #11
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The big question the stewards will have to decide: Either Vettel was not in control, then the penalty might be ok but the reasoning is wrong. Or he was in control, as the reasoning suggests. In that case: would he have been entitled to move to defend position? The answer to that is: yes, he would have, and he would not have to leave space as Hamilton was not yet alongside him.

In that case the penalty is wrong but the reasoning is right.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 07:20 (Ref:3912810)   #12
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Problem is "let them race" means totally different things to people. Same as "obvious advantage" etc.

All the time a rule has to be decided by a human beings judgement call there is going to be issues.

It is totally impossible to have a 100% perfect set of rules in these circumstances. For example everyone says Hamilton was forced off track but Vettel was further away from the edge of the track than previous laps and Hamilton had been that wide on his own many times.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 07:25 (Ref:3912812)   #13
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Hamilton was not yet alongside him.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 07:31 (Ref:3912813)   #14
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Worth remembering as well that the current stricter rules are in large part the result of drivers wanting greater clarity and consistency about what is allowed and what is not.

Entirely predictably, when a driver falls foul of the now-strict rules, they complain about a lack of common sense and how rules are stifling racing.

Drivers will take whatever freedom is allowed them, and then push that to the edge and over. One thing we don't see any longer are Senna and Schumacher-esque deliberate attempts to drive into a rival or force them into a wall. I'd rather have nanny-state rules than a return to those days.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 08:01 (Ref:3912818)   #15
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I stand corrected, did not remember that.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 08:35 (Ref:3912820)   #16
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I stand corrected, did not remember that.
No worries.

But in line with the original question:

Even though Hamilton was (at least partly) alongside, was Vettel still 'racing', or were his standards lower than should be expected?
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 08:41 (Ref:3912821)   #17
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Even though Hamilton was (at least partly) alongside, was Vettel still 'racing', or were his standards lower than should be expected?
I think his standards were lower than expected in going off the track in the first place. "Let them race" in this instance means "let Vettel get away unscathed from making a mistake under pressure". I am very reluctant to endorse an interpretation or re-writing of the rules which allows drivers who make mistakes to be advantaged over those who do not.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 10:22 (Ref:3912841)   #18
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I think his standards were lower than expected in going off the track in the first place. "Let them race" in this instance means "let Vettel get away unscathed from making a mistake under pressure". I am very reluctant to endorse an interpretation or re-writing of the rules which allows drivers who make mistakes to be advantaged over those who do not.
He didn't get away unscathed though. Hamilton was closer (nearly two seconds) after the off than before. He made a mistake and lost time. Yes on an older style track he would probably have been out of the race or lost far more time but in the context of the modern F1 he did pay a price.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 12:25 (Ref:3912859)   #19
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No worries.

But in line with the original question:

Even though Hamilton was (at least partly) alongside, was Vettel still 'racing', or were his standards lower than should be expected?
I never know what to expect from Vettels driving standards these days! ;-p
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 12:35 (Ref:3912862)   #20
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A big part of the problem is that whilst the stewards have made noises about letting them race, when an incident is referred to them, they look at it in comparison to previous incidents and the penalties awarded at that time.

They have to decide are they going to compare with the past incidents and penalties in which case they have to judge with the same mindset as the stewards of the incident they are comparing,

Or are they looking at it with with a different mindset in which case the outcome and penalties of previous events can't be used as a yardstick.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 14:16 (Ref:3912885)   #21
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A big part of the problem is that whilst the stewards have made noises about letting them race, when an incident is referred to them, they look at it in comparison to previous incidents and the penalties awarded at that time.

They have to decide are they going to compare with the past incidents and penalties in which case they have to judge with the same mindset as the stewards of the incident they are comparing,

Or are they looking at it with with a different mindset in which case the outcome and penalties of previous events can't be used as a yardstick.
I have avoided this thread out of fear it would just be another rehash of the recent Vettel vs. Hamilton incident (nothing wrong with that topic, but I am just personally done with it). And to a degree it is, with the same participants arguing the same points as in the race thread. But the above question is a good one.

I started to type a reply and then realized that I was not sure of the history of the recent effort to reduce driver penalties and specifically who is expected to solve this problem. That my reply hinged upon the answers to that question.

I spent a tiny bit of time looking into this and I found some articles that talked about this in 2017. That there was a change to the sporting regulations at that time. Article 38 deals with incidents during the race. Specifically what the Stewards are expected to do. The pertinent section is Article 38.2 (a) which says...

Quote:
It shall be at the discretion of the stewards to decide if any driver involved in an Incident should be penalised.

Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for an Incident no penalty will be imposed.
Apologies if this has already been discussed, but I believe the first part was changed (I didn't dig up pre 2017 rules to see exactly what changed) to give the stewards broad powers to just not do anything if they want. Basically, they didn't have to be total slaves to the verbiage of the rules. That common sense and some wiggle room can officially exist.

I think this puts a HUGE weight upon the stewards given the question ScotsBrutesFan asks. Without their being some level of side communications going on as to what exactly should change, it seems to be wholly up to the stewards to decide how the sport should "change" in this area.

Now, we know that there is a slew of unwritten rules that governs the sport. In the US (and this may happen worldwide), we generally may operate off of "laws", but typically additional "regulations" may be written based upon the laws to really provide practical details on how things work. I think F1 has the "laws" in the form of the sporting and technical regulations and my "regulations" from my example above (how they are actually applied) are mostly unwritten.

My favorite example is that for the most part, many rules just don't apply for the first corner of the first lap. Nothing exists in the sporting regulations for this, but it's well known. So there may be conversations happening between various parties (drivers, teams, race director, stewards) to define the new ways things will be handled. We all like the "clarify" word for this. Which is the writing (and rewriting) of the unwritten rules.

So I expect that some scenarios have been discussed in advance and everyone knows if X happens, that while Y would be the prior action by the stewards, that Z might be the new action by the stewards. But there also exists new scenarios that are not discussed in advance. So when that happens (and this is to ScotsBrutesFan's question)... We can only guess as to what the strategy is used by the stewards. They might...

1. Fully fall back upon prior precedents and not try to push forward new thinking.
2. Look at prior precedents and come up with a new precedent on the fly.

I suspect that the answer is more like #1 because doing #2 could get it wrong and set an incorrect precedent. Then if the topic blows up (i.e. many feel that path #1 is not to the new "spirit"), it gets discussed and "clarified" if required for the next time. I wonder if the recent incident resulted in this or not. We may never know unless someone is a real insider.

Now the last bit of the regulation I quote above might be viewed by some as something that kills the flexibility given to the stewards. That is the part that says...

Quote:
Unless it is clear to the stewards that a driver was wholly or predominantly to blame for an Incident no penalty will be imposed
I suspect... that is somewhat of an attempt to prevent the concept of "Jury Nullification". If you don't know the concept, you can look it up, but basically it is when you put a decision in the hands of the jury and they just don't care what the law says, but their decision is binding. For example... Husband beats wife for years and years. One night she just just shoots him dead in his sleep. It is clearly "murder" by the legal definition. The Jury however may feel... "You know what... he just needed killin'" and votes not guilty and most everyone is happy with the solution even if it wasn't technically the correct answer.

I think the regulation change above tries to give them broad powers, but also tries to prevent them from going way off course.

Richard

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Old 19 Jun 2019, 14:35 (Ref:3912887)   #22
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I think they do need to allow a bit of discretion with rules, providing it is fully explained why they punished this and not that. Of course I think they need to look more at the dangerous and the unsporting things than the normal misjudgments, but that's just me
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 15:42 (Ref:3912908)   #23
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im not sure how one can apply discretion in real time?

gather information, question drivers/witnesses, debate among the stewards, send your lawyers to kangaroo court to settle a race that ended weeks ago etc etc....i dont know what the right answer is but i know its not that!
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 16:07 (Ref:3912915)   #24
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Worth remembering as well that the current stricter rules are in large part the result of drivers wanting greater clarity and consistency about what is allowed and what is not.

Entirely predictably, when a driver falls foul of the now-strict rules, they complain about a lack of common sense and how rules are stifling racing.

Drivers will take whatever freedom is allowed them, and then push that to the edge and over. One thing we don't see any longer are Senna and Schumacher-esque deliberate attempts to drive into a rival or force them into a wall. I'd rather have nanny-state rules than a return to those days.
That's how I see it too. This type of rule was framed to reduce thuggish driving, it's a pity it was necessary.
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Old 19 Jun 2019, 20:42 (Ref:3912970)   #25
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