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Old 26 Mar 2003, 15:02 (Ref:548822)   #1
gttouring
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DP's Fix

What would be the fixes any one here would do to improve on the DP's? that is retaining the tube frame design of course and the 'cost saving measures.' A spec prototype wasn't a bad idea after mulling it over for months, it would be a class better suited as the 750's and leaving the 675's alone...
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Old 26 Mar 2003, 17:41 (Ref:548958)   #2
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THe cost cutting measures. They are what makes the Dp's so bad. If we can't change them, there's no helping them. I'm not advocating no cost cutting, but what they've done in the way of production blocks, and one make uprights, and wings, .............
There's way too much restriction, it's like a kit car. There's no real DIY at all
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Old 26 Mar 2003, 17:55 (Ref:548980)   #3
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Indeed, the whole DP idea is beyond help IMO...I only like NASCAR when it's not disguised as a prototype.
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Old 26 Mar 2003, 21:59 (Ref:549311)   #4
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There's a difference between "cost cutting" and "cost-effective"

A fast race car can be built without breaking the bank of Monte Carlo...

I object to intentionally dumbing down the rules to make everyone run about the same speed and trying to sell it as "Racing"

This same way of thinking by the same group of people led to NASCAR using common templates (at least 18 of 30 some-odd dimensions) with cosmetic grill openings and "badging" on this year's cars...

I believe that if a Chevy Monte Carlo is a "brick on wheels," then GM needs to go back to the drawing board..or if Ford has too much downforce, then Ford better figure out "A Better Idea"...

(It is why I don't watch NASCAR unless I really need a racing fix...)
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Old 26 Mar 2003, 23:07 (Ref:549408)   #5
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From the comments made so far by some of the G/A group, I get the feeling that not much, if anything, will be done. Perhaps 50 more lbs of ballast to the GTS cars might be on the cards.

I have seen Roger E's FAQ on the G/A site as well as articles on the net and in mags, and I am under the impression they find nothing whatsoever wrong with it.

One G/A official was quoted as saying "soon you'll see us having so slow these cars down", when confronted with the speed issue in the last issue of RACER. When you have to constantely dumb down the other classes and/or eliminate them to have the DP barely edge a GT car, this is not the best of attitudes that you can present to fans or teams.

If I'm wrong, I'll be the first to admit it, but I really doubt that anything will be done anytime soon to change the DP formula.
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Old 26 Mar 2003, 23:30 (Ref:549427)   #6
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the most simple fix imo is to give them more power...if you can't change the concept too much, at least make them faster...
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Old 27 Mar 2003, 03:52 (Ref:549574)   #7
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Similar to F5000, this can be done- over power the cars. or simply cut the green house in half and make them unique, not the 'classic' 2 seater prototypes, but a fighter jet look one sided cockpit, and big pushrod v8 and turbo v6's radiators anywhere, save money sure- and the racing comes back, any thoughts.
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Old 27 Mar 2003, 04:48 (Ref:549586)   #8
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Let'em run whatever horsepower they can bring to a fight, and put the radiators where-ever makes the best sense.

the one-make uprights and wings have to go, and let'em have endplates on the wings, as well.

Underbody diffusers...how 'bout that for an idea? Nothing wrong with letting them have a *little* bit of downforce...


I dunno...just a few ideas for a revival of a maybe-decent concept.
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Old 27 Mar 2003, 20:11 (Ref:550374)   #9
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If you think purists are having an excrutiating time with this, just imagine how lost non-enthusiasts are feeling.

Actually, the best way is to put on a Grand Am race either one week before or after the broadcast of an ALMS event, and then let the populace decide which series has better appeal. In some ways, it'll settle, once and for all, which series has the public's hearts, minds, and future ticket purchases.
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Old 28 Mar 2003, 07:58 (Ref:550769)   #10
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Bad idea. Don't settle it, and then they can still compete. Then we see the best of what they can do. GA's best right now is the DPs. (giggle)

On the other hand, if ALMS can finish off GA, Daytona is back in respectable hands. But then, the cars are too expensive. I'm willing to bet money I'll never have that it will end up costing as much to develop a DP, as it does an LMP. They aren't saving cash, they're just using cheaper cars. Does that make sense?
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Old 28 Mar 2003, 13:18 (Ref:551049)   #11
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No. IMO what they need is spec diffusers, steel tube chassis, standard engine blocks, but unlike the current cars, everything else will be free as it were. Maybe road fuel would be good. This way, you have the main areas of cost cutting implemented, without the slow cars.
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Old 28 Mar 2003, 13:59 (Ref:551103)   #12
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On the other hand, if ALMS can finish off GA, Daytona is back in respectable hands. But then, the cars are too expensive. I'm willing to bet money I'll never have that it will end up costing as much to develop a DP, as it does an LMP. They aren't saving cash, they're just using cheaper cars. Does that make sense?
First of all, I strongly doubt that the ALMS will ever run at Daytona again in any form, regardless of what happens to the Grand-Am series. Many sportscar fans assume that the France family would suddenly welcome Panoz in with open arms if they can't keep the Rolex going, but I think that's just not going to happen. My guess is that if Grand-Am tanks, the Frances will work even harder to bring down the ALMS in any way possible.

Secondly, it is starting to appear that the reduction in costs represented by the DPs will actually be found mostly on the developmental and operational phases as opposed to the construction phase, contrary to what you suggest. Cole Scrogham, the President of the G&W team that's running the Picchio DP2, said during testing last week that the Grand-Am mandated components and the stock-based engine they are using in the car are so durable that he thinks it will end up being cheaper to run the Picchio for a whole season than a Porsche GT3 RS. It's anybody's guess as to whether that will actually turn out to be true, but if it does it will be very impressive.
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Old 28 Mar 2003, 15:17 (Ref:551173)   #13
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Car and operating costs are about the same for DP and GT. Just ask team owners instead of speculating and putting out false information that fits your agenda.

A Ferrari 360 GT is 400k and a new 911GT3RS about 300k. If your driver puts one of these cars in the fence it will cost you more to fix it that a tube frame DP.

Hotel rooms,crew,transporters and other costs are the same. It is a false premise to suggest that DPs cost more than GTs and that Grand Am will in turn be a failure.

Cole knows what he is talking about and has quoted me numbers for a season in DPs that are similar to what others have quoted me for a year in GTs.

Daytona 24 "back" in respectable hands? It has always been run by the France family and I doubt that they will be finished off by anyone. Especially a neophyte like Don Panoz and the ALMS.

The LM Tournement,a strong FIA GT series,weak LMP fields (that really are due to high costs) and lack of leadership make it more likely that the ALMS will disappear first. Panoz doesn't have the money or willingness to prop up the ALMS anymore.
That is obvious by his actions and can be supported by facts.

Lets hope that Sebring will continue no matter what occurs with the ALMS. Maybe it becomes an LM Tournement event?

If Bernie buys CART I suggest that it will be the ALMS that is finished off. CART is a much bigger "enemy" of the ALMS than the G/A is.

Even if the DP class goes away, G/A will likely stay around as a GT series. The Frances aren't likely to be going anywhere either.

KM
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Old 28 Mar 2003, 15:42 (Ref:551198)   #14
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Originally posted by MaxSport
If Bernie buys CART I suggest that it will be the ALMS that is finished off. CART is a much bigger "enemy" of the ALMS than the G/A is.

Even if the DP class goes away, G/A will likely stay around as a GT series. The Frances aren't likely to be going anywhere either.
I doubt that Bernie can fix in one fell swoop what ails CART, so they won't kill off ALMS. Of course, your assertion of The Death Of ALMS is predicated on your usual hostility towards the LMP classes, which I don't see going away regardless of the financial outlook. Guys who want to race, will race. And if they want cars that look like race cars first and foremost, prototypes will survive. It's been going on for 50 years now...

That said, your second sentence rings true to me. I think the management of ALMS figured that one out when the whole Miami debacle of last year happened. The evidence would be in the way the two camps portrayed the event - CART were all over the idea of more joint events, while the ALMS people were very cool to it. Of course, the failure to secure an European date in May, coupled with the Mexico cancellation, surely confirmed that. (I'm speculating on the first failure being influenced by Pook's foray into Europe to secure dates in lieu of Chicago and Rockingham; the second failure has been linked to CART by others, but I have no authoritative information.)

I also think you're right about Grand Am becoming all-GT (and I think you can eliminate the "if" statement); what do you think that means for the Grand Am Cup?
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Old 28 Mar 2003, 15:44 (Ref:551201)   #15
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News item in Indianapolis Star today...

CART is looking very favorably at Bernie & F-1 buying controlling shares of CART..looks like that will happen...

MaxSport makes some valid points, although I don't think ALMS will go away...their ties to the ACO will help them a lot...


On the DPs:

Horsepower will help, but you can't polish a Turd...
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