Home Mobile Forum News Cookbook FaceBook Us T-Shirts etc.: Europe/Worldwide. eBay Motorsport Links Advertising Live Chat  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Saloon & Sportscar Racing > Sportscar & GT Racing > ACO Regulated Series


Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 20 Mar 2017, 15:11 (Ref:3720220)   #241
bentley speed 8
Veteran
 
bentley speed 8's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Sri Lanka
Posts: 1,197
bentley speed 8 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridbentley speed 8 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
More engine options for LMP1-L is always welcome.
bentley speed 8 is offline  
Quote
Old 30 Mar 2017, 16:42 (Ref:3722634)   #242
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,528
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Not sure where to place this question. It may already have been answered previously, but... Are either Toyota or Porsche using in 2017 (or previously) Turbulent Jet Ignition (TJI) in their LMP1 engines?

It has been a hot topic within the F1 community. I think Mercedes had it first, then Ferrari, Renault and now Honda is giving it a go. It's not particularly an easy thing to make work. If you don't know what TJI is, it basically is a pre-chamber combustion system to support very lean running (high efficiency). In place of where normally you would find a spark plug in the head, you would have a small pre-chamber, a pre-chamber fuel injector and a spark plug. The fuel in that pre-chamber is ignited and then via specific nozzles, jets of combustion gases are sent into the main combustion chamber to ignite the main (I assume very lean) fuel/air combo. The FJI system accounts for part of the power delivery as well.

http://www.f1technical.net/news/20316

I don't know if Mahle is a Porsche partner or not, but I believe Mahle has worked with Ferrari on their TJI solution.

http://www.mahle-powertrain.com/en/e...-jet-ignition/

I can't seem to find any mention of Honda or Toyota using TJI, but at the same time, I would be surprised if one or both are not using this in 2017.

Richard
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 30 Mar 2017, 18:31 (Ref:3722646)   #243
TF110
Veteran
 
TF110's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
United States
Posts: 13,628
TF110 has a real shot at the championship!TF110 has a real shot at the championship!TF110 has a real shot at the championship!TF110 has a real shot at the championship!TF110 has a real shot at the championship!
I've read on the autosport forums that Honda is now using it in F1. I would be interested to know if it's on the lmp1's also.
TF110 is offline  
Quote
Old 31 Mar 2017, 08:22 (Ref:3722732)   #244
knighty
Veteran
 
knighty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
England
Essex
Posts: 1,382
knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by TF110 View Post
I've read on the autosport forums that Honda is now using it in F1. I would be interested to know if it's on the lmp1's also.
for a turbocharged gasoline engine, TJI is without doubt must-have technology.......you can be rest assured if Porsche /Toyota were not using it last year, they will be this year for sure.......the technology is unique to Mahle and heavily patented, so you would need to first sign a mass production contract with Mahle before they let you use it in a race application.......this is how they work on the piston business, no mass production pistons = no race pistons
knighty is offline  
Quote
Old 31 Mar 2017, 13:55 (Ref:3722801)   #245
Richard Casto
Subscriber
Veteran
 
Richard Casto's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2009
United States
Durham, NC, USA
Posts: 2,528
Richard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameRichard Casto will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by knighty View Post
the technology is unique to Mahle and heavily patented, so you would need to first sign a mass production contract with Mahle before they let you use it in a race application.......this is how they work on the piston business, no mass production pistons = no race pistons
That's an interesting assertion. If Mahle holds all of the key patents, then I am sure they will be compensated somehow. Forcing agreement to become an OEM supplier is a big ask. What I find interesting is that when I look for things like press releases for partnerships between the F1 engine manufactures and Mahle, I can find some for Mercedes and Renault that point to road cars (extending back to a time prior to the current engine regulations and TJI). I can find a press release for Ferrari but that is focused purely on the F1 project with no mention of the road car division (no clue if Ferrari is using Mahle in their production cars or not). I did find one article that talks about Mahle working with Ferrari on TJI, and supplying pistons for the F1 project, but it also says that Mahle "used" to provide pistons for Mercedes, but no longer (implication is that Mercedes likely still uses TJI but without all of the bits from Mahle).

https://arstechnica.com/cars/2016/05...iciency-gains/

And so far, I can find absolutely nothing regarding Honda and Mahle (other than aftermarket Mahle components). And it is pretty well accepted that the new 2017 Honda F1 engine uses TJI. So I am "somewhat" skeptical that the "only" option to work with Mahle is a deal to use their components in road car manufacturing. If Mahle truly only does deals that way, then another option is if someone like Honda has found a solution that does not require licensing Mahle IP.

Regarding Toyota and Porsche, it's hard to search out news about Porsche and Mahle because results are so flooded with aftermarket usage. I so far can't find anything about Toyota either.

Richard

Last edited by Richard Casto; 31 Mar 2017 at 14:00.
Richard Casto is offline  
__________________
Money can't buy happiness, but somehow it's more comfortable to cry in a Porsche than a Kia.
Quote
Old 31 Mar 2017, 15:19 (Ref:3722811)   #246
TF110
Veteran
 
TF110's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2010
United States
Posts: 13,628
TF110 has a real shot at the championship!TF110 has a real shot at the championship!TF110 has a real shot at the championship!TF110 has a real shot at the championship!TF110 has a real shot at the championship!
Not sure if this is the right thread, but a gentleman's agreement between Toyota and Porsche has been put in place to use the current chassis through 2019.
TF110 is offline  
Quote
Old 31 Mar 2017, 17:50 (Ref:3722849)   #247
Akrapovic
Veteran
 
Akrapovic's Avatar
 
Join Date: Mar 2015
Scotland
Posts: 5,710
Akrapovic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAkrapovic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAkrapovic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAkrapovic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAkrapovic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAkrapovic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAkrapovic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAkrapovic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAkrapovic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameAkrapovic will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
That's a long time on the same chassis. Impressive that they both feel they can do that. Porsche is still on the original one too of course.
Akrapovic is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Oct 2017, 08:34 (Ref:3776728)   #248
Japanese Samurai
Veteran
 
Join Date: Mar 2008
Japan
Posts: 3,761
Japanese Samurai has a real shot at the podium!Japanese Samurai has a real shot at the podium!Japanese Samurai has a real shot at the podium!Japanese Samurai has a real shot at the podium!Japanese Samurai has a real shot at the podium!
Tokyo Motor Show 2017 report by Kota Sera.
http://serakota.blog.so-net.ne.jp/2017-10-26

He reports 3D printing collecting pipe of exhaust manifold of VRX30A evo at Koiwai Co., Ltd. booth.
Material: Inconel 718
3D Printer: Arcam A2X
Printing time: 22 hours
Weight: 0.96 kg
Japanese Samurai is offline  
Quote
Old 26 Mar 2018, 06:19 (Ref:3810808)   #249
Mike E
Veteran
 
Mike E's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location:
Leeds
Posts: 2,122
Mike E is going for a new world record!Mike E is going for a new world record!Mike E is going for a new world record!Mike E is going for a new world record!Mike E is going for a new world record!Mike E is going for a new world record!Mike E is going for a new world record!
Gibson GL458 to be revealed today.

https://twitter.com/gibsontech1/stat...718595072?s=19

https://twitter.com/gibsontech1/stat...756913161?s=19
Mike E is online now  
Quote
Old 26 Mar 2018, 19:05 (Ref:3811056)   #250
Bentley03
Race Official
Veteran
 
Bentley03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
United Kingdom
Posts: 5,576
Bentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike E View Post
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2018/0...p1-engine.html
Bentley03 is offline  
__________________
........founder member teamDOT
Quote
Old 26 Mar 2018, 21:20 (Ref:3811086)   #251
Steve McQ
Rookie
 
Join Date: Dec 2014
France
Posts: 23
Steve McQ should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSteve McQ should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
I understand that the engine has no direct fuel injection since it's the same cylinder head as the P2 powerplant. Add to this the relatively modest thermal efficiency of a normally aspirated engine vs a turbocharged one and I am not optimistic for the performances of the Gibson cars. Let's hope they are reliable !
Steve McQ is offline  
Quote
Old 27 Mar 2018, 07:21 (Ref:3811160)   #252
knighty
Veteran
 
knighty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
England
Essex
Posts: 1,382
knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
^^^^ +1 .......you took the words right out of my mouth.......I'm getting the wrong vibe from Gibson about this engine.....like you say if they are using the same cylinder head, it therefore cannot be direct fuel injection, therefore they cannot gain a 5% fuel efficiency advantage, which can stretch the fuel stops to another lap at LeMans.......lightweight - who cares......its a V8 and light enough already........low-cost - again who cares, the teams running are wealthy enough to afford a direct injection system.........timescale - it was conceived far too late, and to me has elements of a rush-job about it........I still feel this engine will get trounced by the NISMO-Cosworth-V6, the Mechachrome V6 and the AER turbo engines in terms of outright pace and performance.........the Gibson engine will have a serious torque deficit to these engines and it will show on track........but yes, perhaps it will be more reliable and go the distance, time will tell I guess.
knighty is offline  
__________________
KnighTorque
Quote
Old 27 Mar 2018, 12:58 (Ref:3811235)   #253
BRG
Rookie
 
Join Date: Jul 2008
England
Gloucestershire
Posts: 96
BRG should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Quote:
Originally Posted by knighty View Post
^^^^ +1 .......you took the words right out of my mouth.......I'm getting the wrong vibe from Gibson about this engine.....like you say if they are using the same cylinder head, it therefore cannot be direct fuel injection, therefore they cannot gain a 5% fuel efficiency advantage, which can stretch the fuel stops to another lap at LeMans.......lightweight - who cares......its a V8 and light enough already........low-cost - again who cares, the teams running are wealthy enough to afford a direct injection system.........timescale - it was conceived far too late, and to me has elements of a rush-job about it........I still feel this engine will get trounced by the NISMO-Cosworth-V6, the Mechachrome V6 and the AER turbo engines in terms of outright pace and performance.........the Gibson engine will have a serious torque deficit to these engines and it will show on track........but yes, perhaps it will be more reliable and go the distance, time will tell I guess.
I keep bringing up this same point and I wish someone who has looked at the regs will confirm this or not.
The AOC have said they will BPO between different types of technology, so they will BOP the fastest most efficient, powerful Turbo engine against the fastest most powerful NA engine. If the Gibson is the only NA engine then it will have a very favorable BOP whilst also being Simpler to package and most likely more reliable .
BRG is offline  
__________________
"Second Place is just the first loser"
Quote
Old 27 Mar 2018, 14:15 (Ref:3811258)   #254
knighty
Veteran
 
knighty's Avatar
 
Join Date: Nov 2005
England
Essex
Posts: 1,382
knighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridknighty should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
I'm sure the ACO will try to BOP, but it will just create a never ending whinging match between teams, just like it did between Audi running a Diesel and Toyota running a Gasoline motor......

Whenever Audi were on the back-foot they always blamed the deficit on the generous rules break the gasoline cars got from the ACO.......PMSL.......Audi didnt complain when they effectively wrote the diesel regs for themselves and handed them to the ACO.......the privateer gasoline cars couldnt hold a candle to the subsequent diesel performance.......... I subsequently worked for one of the powertrain consulting companies that designed and developed one of the V12 diesel LMP1 engines.......over 800hp and over 1400NM of torque......Jesus, gasoline engines didnt stand a chance.

and now look at BOP in IMSA.......compared to the Gibson engine, the factory teams are down the road, its become an open farce there too........even when they tried to BOP the Caddy motor, air restrictors could not limit the whopping low-torque from the 6.2L motor, now 5.5L, hence they were forced to change the gear ratios.
knighty is offline  
__________________
KnighTorque
Quote
Old 27 Mar 2018, 14:40 (Ref:3811264)   #255
Bentley03
Race Official
Veteran
 
Bentley03's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jan 2005
United Kingdom
Posts: 5,576
Bentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of FameBentley03 will be entering the Motorsport Hall of Fame
Quote:
Originally Posted by BRG View Post
I keep bringing up this same point and I wish someone who has looked at the regs will confirm this or not.
The AOC have said they will BPO between different types of technology, so they will BOP the fastest most efficient, powerful Turbo engine against the fastest most powerful NA engine. If the Gibson is the only NA engine then it will have a very favorable BOP whilst also being Simpler to package and most likely more reliable .
These are the relevant regs, but they don't answer your question:

7.4 Equivalence systems (performance and technologies)

7.4.1 Equivalence systems between the different LMP1
propulsion technologies.

In order to limit the differences between the hybrid and nonhybrid
cars, the Endurance Committee will be able to adapt
the performance of the non-hybrid cars in accordance with the
following conditions:

a) The reference will be the calculation of the average lap time
of the fastest car in each technology. The average lap time will
be calculated over the number of laps corresponding to 20%
of the distance of the races (average of the best laps).

The models of the cars with the slowest technologies must
have participated in at least two races and must have been
properly classified in order to be able to benefit from the
application of the rule.
The first adjustment of performance may be applied at any
time by the Endurance Committee.
The Committee will have the right to request any necessary
information from the manufacturers and/or the competitors, in
order to the shed light on the issue at hand. Any such
information will be treated in a strictly confidential manner.

Any competitor having deliberately provided false information
or having attempted to influence an adjustment by hiding its
true level of performance will be penalised by the FIA.

b) Equivalence of Technology of the LMP1 cars
The principles of the EoT, calculated on the basis of the data
collected from the "best in class" of each technology, will be
applied up to the 2018 Le Mans event inclusive, based on the
values specified in Appendix B to the 2018 Technical
Regulations.

It will be up to the Endurance Committee to settle any
questions that might arise concerning the application and/or
interpretation of these elements in the last resort.

d) The competitors and manufacturers are responsible for
providing valid data on request to help the FIA/ACO with the
EoT process.
All competitors and manufacturers that deliberately provided
misinformation, tried to influence the EoT process, or whose
level of performance is higher than the expected result may be
sanctioned with a penalty before, during or after a race.

Minimum penalty: 5-minute stop and go, at the Stewards’
discretion.


Maybe the answer was in part c), which appears to have been omitted...?
Bentley03 is offline  
__________________
........founder member teamDOT
Quote
Reply

Bookmarks




Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
How about a LMP1 Pro & LMP1 Privateer class Holt Sportscar & GT Racing 35 6 Jun 2012 13:44
Can someone explain the current detailed rules on the Engines? jellison NASCAR & Stock Car Racing 33 15 Apr 2008 21:39
Current Cosworth Engines????? Peter Nightingale Formula One 11 26 May 2006 18:54
New Engines in LMP1 JAG Sportscar & GT Racing 27 31 Mar 2004 14:25
CURRENT POWER OUTPUTS OF GP AND SUPERBIKE ENGINES? Robin Plummer Racing Technology 3 12 Oct 2000 11:15


Powered by vBadvanced CMPS v3.2.3

All times are GMT. The time now is 11:11.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.9
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2018 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.