Schumacher gives the game away

[angst]

Michael Schumacher has somewhat given the game away as far as "traction control" goes. He has called for Frentzy to concentrate on his own car and not to go on about other people's. He said that he shouldn't have questioned the legality of the system Ferrari are using.
"If it is legal, it is legal. This is a fact, we have done a better job than the rest"
So, no denial that they are using a system that controls the output of power.

[Gt_R]

Not gonna be another Ferrari legal/illegal argument again i hope...started again by anti-schumacher agents?

Just take heed that "one is not guilty unless proven". Lets just assume that all's fair and square and play ignorance once in a while...it'd help us to enjoy F1 more by making it look more interesting and fun~ :P

[JeremySmith]

Mr Angst...Don't you think that Michael Schumacher was refering to the job that Ferrari/Bridgstone had done concerning overall performance of the car. Again if Ferrari have already/or are now been using TC then please explain why MS has so much wheel spin during his starts???? and Mika and David do not..

[Dino IV]

Technically starting from stand still and traction control while driving are two different worlds but I won't go into that right now. I can't make anything out of your observations considering the starts of Mika (who's good at it, as is Villy, Jos and some other collegues), DC (who starts very loosy IMO) and TGF (who's much better in other parts of the game than starting). If I state that traction control is being used today and in the past and some driver comments that they should be awarded for doing a good job, we're both right. TC was and is in use and if a team uses it and gets away with it their doing a good job. If it's an honorary one is up to your own sportmanship to decide. The one who's doing the wrong job for that matter is Mosley and his FIA. You can't stand for the basic priciple that traction control is not allowed and at the same time close your eyes for the cars that do use traction control.

[angst]

I'll put my position on this as simply as I can. Any fault lies with the FIA for writing up regulations with so much ambiguity that it is difficult to tell what is and is not legal (much as the ride height regs in'81 which Brabham circumvented by the cunning use of lowering the car under aerodynamic loading).
Now neither team were/are cheating and any advantage gained is down to clever manipulation of the regs, which is the job of the engineers.
But it does show why Schumacher (and Barrichello) were so good compared to the opposition in changing conditions especially. Ferrari undoubtedly did the business last year. Good though Schumacher is, Ferrari's engineers have given him a good advantage to work with - and this has been hinted at throughout last year, and utterly denied by TGF fans.
This is the problem with F1. Drivers who are very, very capable of running at the front will never get a chance because they are in the wrong team, and their reputations are based on their efforts in totally inadequate cars, whereas those in the top two (maybe three) teams get seen as masters of their trade, totally dominant above all others - and this is not the case.

[enemy-ace]

Correct me if i'm wrong, but wasn't the general consensus last year that the ferrari was hard on it's tyres during races. if that is so wouldn't some form of traction control alleviate that problem?

[robert2000]

It is possible that any traction control system could be toggled, and therefore switched off during race starts to try and make people believe you're not using it.

It's funny how the traction control rumours followed Schumi from Benetton to Ferrari though. Maybe Ross or Rory know something as they followed him.

[Maximum F1]

Lets just all wait until spain, then we will see who has been using traction control, we will see them drop back dramatically!

[Liz]

What makes me laugh (albeit hollowly) is Max pontificating that Ferrari is "NOT" using traction control (after having admitted that the FIA can't tell if anybody is using it or not) and expecting us to say "Oh, okay, Max, if you say so it's got to be true."

Bernie has rigged the WDC in Ferrari's favour before and it would not surprise me at all if they're using TC, but since I don't care about any car above P4 in the current field, it doesn't matter squat to me. Especially since these days "legal" means "whatever I can get away with."

What happened to sportsmanship? Sunk beneath the billboards, I guess.

[KC]

According to Autosport, Michael has lashed out at Heinz for his remarks...

Michael Schumacher has lashed out at Heinz-Harald Frentzen for bringing the sport of Formula 1 into disrepute. He called on the Jordan driver to rethink after accusing Ferrari of using clever electronics to get around rules banning traction control.


I find this quite humerous. The FIA is the main reason why Formula 1 is brought into disrepute. But, I guess when you live inside the fishbowl, there is no looking inwards.

[JeremySmith]

Liz..Could you please explain to me how you feel that Bernie has rigged the WDC in Ferrari's favour in the past or present.. I am a TGF fan, but I don't care for him or Ferrari to win races by cheating..I always thought that he was simply the best pilot in modern F1, and could get the job done every other Sunday

Robert ..My understanding is that TC is part of the software that is programed into the CPU for the car..Switch it on and off????Does anyone else have ideas on this concept

[Guinness]

Jersound, I think what Robert is suggesting is that it is completely possible to hit a switch to "delete" memory or mapping related to TC. I can't really base this on anything as I am not a tech guy, however I do believe it to be possible.
I think the more interesting question is why the FIA does not attach some kind of realtime tracking device to each car and monitor any and all information flowing through to the blackbox? Software could be produced to put up a "redflag" pointing out suspect telemetry...
Just a thought.

[Gt_R]

Somehow, its not unusual to see how individuals who have other preferences besides Ferrari and Schumi are out to discredit the great performances of the Champions with UNPROVEN allegations of cheats. Its really annoying, let alone childish. Does it help to make them feel better and explain that why their favs lost? Kinda acting like Ron!
Please note that what most allegations are made are assumptions made by your biased mindsets. FIA acting all in favour of Ferrari, Bernie writing a "Ferrari must win" script, Ferrari using TC....blah!!
Ferrari had put in a tremendous effort in improving their engines. When schumacher first came to Ferrari, he did not insist on the most powerful engine, but instead, a more drivable one. With the best technical crew, $$$, as well as driver in their team, it would be natural for the team to come up with a better engine than others. Its of course natural for other team fans to suspect that the Ferrari had cheated. However, to keep insisting upon this and coming up with all sorts of silly arguments (which do not stand) that Ferrari has cheated is really upsetting.
Explain the tyre-eating performances of the Ferrari, explain the poor starts, and explain why Mclaren performed so much better on Hungary (suddenly, on a track which requires lots of traction) race when Ferrari is faster on quals? (i am asking although i can roughly expect what sort of answer or excuses those accusers are gonna come up with)
I am sure if one day, after months of hard learning, you cooked a most delicious meal for your loved ones, the last thing you want them to say is "You bought them from the Resturant??"
Get a life!!

[JeremySmith]

Guinness

I see what you are saying very interesting concept..anything is possible I suppose..I know let's get the CIA to moniter the car's..Seriously though the FIA could come up with a device like you are suggesting

One point I would like to make ladies and Gentleman of the jury...Michael Schumacher has never struck me as the type of person who would want or need to cheat to win....He has worked very hard at Ferrari to bring them the WCC..and all the accusations are unproven as far as I can see...

GT_R...as usual you are right on the money...

[Dino IV]

Your mind seems to bungeejumping around, Gt_R. We already discussed this in the HHF thread and there you started with comments like this, eventually apologizing 'to all the fans' and here you start 'get-a-life'-ing again. Good suggestion I guess ... I might as well post the same again then.

In the case of traction control you see it ain't that simple. The area of electronic aids is clouded under a haze of rumours, suspicion and denial. Although the FIA has failed to confirm any accusation in court (Ban Max! ) the only fact we as fans know of is that it is not impossible to use TC unpunished in F1. All it takes are a ruthless programmer, well paid for his silence, and a willing driver. Apart from the organizing teammanager, the specialist and the driver no-one needs to know, not even inside the team, not even the driver's teammate in the case of different treatments between those.

That knowledge among fans doesn't seem to move to the logical conclusion that teams, who have developed that kind of TC, will do anything they can to raise their perfomance, thus use some sort of electronic aid.

Instead it seems to divide us in two camps. The ones who are utterly convinced that it's Mika-magic or Schumi-power that makes them drive well ahead of four other teams who seem to be very competitive but simply lack somewhere. It isn't horsepower or aero-deficits coz the teams behind those can clearly be pointed out lacking in one of these areas. Those fans can't really point out what it exactly is where the Schumi and Mika advantage is coming from but they feel that electronic aids are that far off they simply do not accept it as a part of contemporary F1.

On the other hand there are those who think that's very naive and simply don't buy it. They reckon there are electronic aids out there and that the $ 100 million Ferrari and McLaren spend in excess of the Williams, Jordan, BAR, Jaguar budgets of $ 200 million is more than enough to pay a few software specialists in order to supply their drivers with some very sophisticated electronic aids.

F1 is no fun sport, it's business. Business where a team has to pull all registers to survive up front. The rules are patented Mosley-rubber and it's the teams jobs to stretch it as far as they can. The further you stretch them they faster you can possibly go. The more areas you stretch them to their fullest the further ahead you will be on the grid. Ergo, the teams on the forefront of the grid are champions in using the maximum stretch in the rules in the most areas ... the electronic aid area included.

Cheers,
Dino

[Valve Bounce]

Hey Dino, come to my thread and give us your opinion on the specifics. Slipstream has a very good point there.

[angst]

GT_r
I am not saying Ferrari are the only team to be using a form of TC, just they have stretched the rules further (better?) than anyone else. I personally believe it's use is against the spirit of the regs, but that's not what is important in the multi-million pound world of F1. It is up to the FIA to format regs that they can police properly and that actually mean something. It would help if someone thought them through properly, rather than Max pushing through some bizarre idea that he's had of the future of F1 (grooved tyres - kuh)

[neutral]

Angst, why am I surprised. It only took the first race for you to begin your Schumi/Ferrari are cheating accusations this year (implying that they use some form of TC is synonymous to saying they are cheating). If I didn't know any better, I would think I was on an X-files forum as opposed to Formula 1. It appears more evident know than ever, that the only arguments Schumi detractors can put forward are primarily based on conspiracy theories. Ie Schui only wins because he has sole possession to illegal software, the FIA will do anything to ensure a Schui victory....etc etc. For credibility in any argument, some sort of evidence or factual knowledge must be demonstrated. Elements that have obviously escaped the proponents of such fairytales/theories. To dismiss such an argument is quite simple, as we require nothing but two things:-

1) Logic
2) A rational audience

Thankfully I have been granted the former, but hoping for the latter would unfortunately be wishful thinking on my part. Having answered such arguments many a time before which have obviously failed to convince, I will attempt a different approach this time, based on questions. However, given requirement 2) I doubt my changing style will have a bearing on certain member's perceptions. But anyway, here goes nothin'-

1) Why is it that when Michael gets off the line quickly, it must be TC, whereas when Mika mirrors the performance it is due to his uncanny starting skill.

2) Why would a worldwide brand such as Ferrari be willing to risk their reputation (built over decades!) for the sake of a few tenths given by TC.

3) Why is it that all the characteristics of TC
(ie. lightning starts, low tyre wear) seem to be more present in other teams such as Mclaren, yet the weary eye remains pointed at the team in red.

4) If the FIA is so pro-ferrari, then why did this privileged team experience such a drought over the past 2 decades?

5) Why is it the case, that when a British team develops a dominant car it is due to technical know how of all the workers. Yet when a certain Italian team produces a masterpiece, it must be due to the infringement of certain technical regulations.

I could go on, but my point has been made. To all forum members, I ask sincerely of you know to look away at the following paragraph as it is solely directed to Dino.

Dino, congratulations on your enrolment! I suppose now you can call yourself an "official" member of ten tenths. When did it happen? Was it a sudden change? or a progressive metamorphosis that I failed to detect? I remember a time, not to long ago, where your discussions often steered clear away from such nonsense. Based on facts or solid reasoning, your arguments were concrete, hard to disagree with and had the ability to convince. I enjoyed our quarrels, believing your thoughts were without prejudice and lacking bias. You have a wealth of F1 knowledge Dino, and listening to your suggestions of "secret software" men "unknown to the Ferrari team" is a bitter disappointment. I would expect this from certain members, but certainly not you. You prostituted your once independent opinion, to follow the mainstream anti-schumi sentiment.I suppose you figured the grass was greener on the other side.
You will gain a lot of supporters on the way, but your integrity has surely been compromised. Everything comes at a price Dino, I just hope it was worth it.

[enzo]

Ahhhhh yes. Good ol' neutral. The master at circular reaoning and slander. Guess nothing has changed!

[Speed]

I think we're discussing a never-ending-and-worthless-issue, due to lack of proves.

[Dino IV]

When your red haze has left your desk, neutral, read my post again and try to pinpoint exactly who I am critizing. Ferrari? Schumi? Favouring McLaren? and Mika? Where? Where do you read any "anti-schumi sentiment" and favour for "the other side"? Not in my post. It's slamming the FIA and the teams willingness to stretch all they can. And rightfully so in my opinion. Please make some effort in the future to understand your fellow posters more thoroughly. It's the least one can do at a forum, isn't it?

[angst]

neutral and Gt_r. Read the article on Autosport.com and you will understand the point that I originaly made - ie Schumacher makes no attempt to hide the fact that Ferrari are using a system whereby control of power to the rear wheels is controlled outside of the remit of the driver. All his statements lead to a virtual admission that this is the case. His only argument has been that it is legal (in the letter of the law at least, and as far as can be monitered) and that Ferrari should be commended for doing a better job than the other teams. At no point does he refute what Frentzy is saying, just that he should keep his views on the legality or otherwise of the system to himself.
The FIA are completely unable to police the use of TC - that is why it is being re-introduced after all.
There are things that Schumacher has done in the past that I have vehemently disapproved of, but the issue here is the FIAs inability to draw up workable regulations.
If you want logic then stop kidding youself that the gap between Ferrari (and Mclaren) and the rest of the field is down solely to the magnificent efforts of their drivers - and is down to some very clever programmers and engineers and an awful lot of money.

[Gt_R]

Well....to clear up where each and everyone of us are standing on... Answer this 2 simple questions

1)Who thinks the Ferrari is illegal?

2)Who thinks the Ferrari is legal?

And angst,
"neutral and Gt_r. If you want logic then stop kidding youself that the gap between Ferrari (and Mclaren) and the rest of the field is down solely to the magnificent efforts of their drivers - and is down to some very clever programmers and engineers and an awful lot of money."

I claim that i have logic...simply because NEVER had i said that Ferrari's gap to the rest of the field is "down solely to the magnificent efforts of their drivers". In fact, in my last post before your above post, i stated that "With the best technical crew, $$$, as well as driver in their team, it would be natural for the team to come up" with a better package. I adknowledged that the superior form the team had displayed was down to basically 3 factors (in desending order) : The crew, money, and lastly driver(MS, in this case).

Anyway, to those who take offense to my previous post in this thread, please understand that it is not directed at ALL anti-ferrari individuals or what, but only at those who falsely accuse Ferrari as cheats, without any proves, just because of their biased mindset. If you are not guilty of this...that post does not bother you! =)

[Red]

Angst, I guess this is what you’re talking about:

Schumacher said: “if it’s legal, it is legal. This is a fact – then we have done a better job than the rest”

Autosport’s contribution to this story: “Until Spain, teams cannot use a system which detects and then reacts to wheelspin, but can use engine maps which modify engine power under certain circumstances in order to prevent wheelspin before it starts”and is partly correct. They can use maps, the maps alter the engine power, it can prevent wheelspin before it starts but definitely NOT under certain circumstances. The mapping(s) have to remain fixed always during the race, only then it is legal. I’m with Max on this one: “some teams are able to tune their engines better than others”. And you missed the most important thing Frentzen said: The media misinterpreted his words! I’m terrible sorry I cannot watch today’s Press Conference video, but from the transcription... well, Frentzen had a very animated talk with journalists.

[Dino IV]

You should elaborate that question IMO, Gt_R, to something like this:

1. Do you think Ferrari is using TC?
2. Do you think it's therefore illegal?

My answer:
1. Yes.
2. Yes.

Explanation:
1. yes, ofcourse and they're not the only ones (noticed that, neutral? Gt_R is focussing on Ferrari, not me. I would have answered the same about McLaren). Strangely enough the FIA knows this as Mosley pointed out in the Sepang pressconference: “It is, however, a fact that some teams are able to tune their engines so that wheelspin becomes unlikely and more manageable. This is not the same thing as traction control.” Wrong, Max, it is the same according to article 9.2.1.
2. yes, but the FIA doesn't sanction this remarkably. They therefore allow teams to use TC already. They shouldn't have to as the Technical Regulations forbid all kinds of wheelspin managing devices in article 9.2.1 (see VB's TC thread). IMO the current TC is illegal following this article, but Mosley obviously chooses not to be mean about it.

Following that policy I am in full support of a new article in the Sporting Regulations: Ban Mosley!

Cheers,
Dino