[WEC] Rebellion Racing

[Deleted]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

Especially now that there aren't separate podiums for P1H vs. P1L.

http://www.24h-lemans.com/wpphpFichi...egulations.pdf
http://www.24h-lemans.com/wpphpFichi...ions-lm-p1.pdf

"LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 1
category includes:

*LE MANS" PROTOTYPE
with no Energy Recovery System (ERS) reserved only for privateers.

LE MANS" PROTOTYPE 1 Hybrid ("LM" P1-H)
with Energy Recovery System (ERS).

Podium ceremony is mandatory for the top three crews in the general classification and in each category, including LMP1 private entrants

Classifications and titles
*Classification of the FIA Endurance Trophy for Private LMP1 Teams,
* Classification of the FIA Endurance Trophy for Private LMP1 Team Drivers
(provided that at least three cars are entered for the full season)

For the FIA Endurance Trophy for the best private LMP1 team, the places held in the general classification of each Event by LMP1 cars, specifically entered in the LMP1 Manufacturers World Championship, are "invisible".



In other words, absolutely nothing else has changed except they redubbed the sub class name from classifications. Meh

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by WMUCarGuy

At this point, I kind of wonder why they don't just move down to P2 and kick ass. Especially now that there aren't separate podiums for P1H vs. P1L. They'll never truly compete with the factory cars and there's very little to brag about finishing 8th or 10th in class, so why not move down to P2 where they could actually compete. They could probably even convert the R-Ones to P2 spec without too much hassle.

There is the sunk cost of building and developing the P1 and the allure of racing in the top class, but when you're playing in a sandbox with four factory teams, it all kind of seems like a waste.

The only reason I can think of that Rebellion stick with their loosing battle in LMP1 is that their sponsor (aren't Rebellion some sort of premium watch brand?) get some great "column inches" for being associated with brands such as Audi and Porsche etc.
Yeah they get hammered by the factories, but they are also immediately forgiven for that by virtue of being privateers.

So, they won't win any trophies, but it seems like a decent business plan...?

[Deleted]

Being entry in LMP1 also gives them special priority treatment from the ACO, in LMP2 you'd just be "among the rest". Extra garage space slots just as factories (as seen on the WEC pit allocations), always guaranteed LM entries, better PR...

And they still get the (useless) sub class trophy as seen on post #826. If they marketize this prize good enough to sponsors/audiences it could be forged to seem just as "precious" as winning LMP2

[PorscheFanNo1]

I still think best LMP1 privateer (even if thats 10th overall at LM) is better PR then winning LMP2.

[Coach Ep]

Originally Posted by PorscheFanNo1

I still think best LMP1 privateer (even if thats 10th overall at LM) is better PR then winning LMP2.

PR for what? Luxury watches?

The team is a rich man's toy and as soon as Alexandre Pesci decides he has spend too much money on 'playing with the big boys', the team is toast.

[knighty]

China & Templer......admittedly the ACO rules are not a help for non-hybrid teams when it comes to the phrase "podiums", so lets put it like this, I expect top-3 results from Rebellion-AER in 2015, on the basis that I am fully aware of how bad the 3.4 V8 Toyota engine really was, versus how good the AER V6 really is, I know more about the AER V6 engine than I am prepared to type on this forum due to confidentiality and trust.

Rebellion-AER will not be running any form of KERS therefore, as per the 2015 ACO LMP1 regs (see page 52) this puts them in the very highest 100.9 Kg/hr petrol fuel flow category, which is about 12.3% more than the 8MJ class that Porsche and Toyota will be in, consider last year in 2014 the difference was 8.7% between non-KERS and 8MJ, therefore the ACO have increased the performance on non-KERS cars by over 3.6%, which is not small when we are talking about fuel flow, Audi would sell their grandmother for such a figure........therefore my conservative power estimate of 650hp, is more realistically in the region of 750hp for a non-KERS gasoline LMP1, really it depends on the track being raced at and how they decide to spread their energy allowance over a stint between pit-stops.

My overall point still stands, the AER engine will provide a massive step-change in performance versus the old Toyota engine, plus Rebellion will be in the lightest category (850Kg) by 20Kg.......which is not a huge amount, but noteworthy.

It will be interesting who gets the job to upgrade the R1 chassis and do all the aero work, do Rebellion still trust Oreca? or will they do the work themselves?........ last I heard was Rebellion employed Julian Sole when Lola folded, so I think they could probably do everything in-house.......if they dont use Oreca, then its fair to assume there is a trust issue.

[YorkshireLad]

Originally Posted by knighty

China & Templer......admittedly the ACO rules are not a help for non-hybrid teams when it comes to the phrase "podiums", so lets put it like this, I expect top-3 results from Rebellion-AER in 2015, on the basis that I am fully aware of how bad the 3.4 V8 Toyota engine really was, versus how good the AER V6 really is, I know more about the AER V6 engine than I am prepared to type on this forum due to confidentiality and trust.

Rebellion-AER will not be running any form of KERS therefore, as per the 2015 ACO LMP1 regs (see page 52) this puts them in the very highest 100.9 Kg/hr petrol fuel flow category, which is about 12.3% more than the 8MJ class that Porsche and Toyota will be in, consider last year in 2014 the difference was 8.7% between non-KERS and 8MJ, therefore the ACO have increased the performance on non-KERS cars by over 3.6%, which is not small when we are talking about fuel flow, Audi would sell their grandmother for such a figure........therefore my conservative power estimate of 650hp, is more realistically in the region of 750hp for a non-KERS gasoline LMP1, really it depends on the track being raced at and how they decide to spread their energy allowance over a stint between pit-stops.

My overall point still stands, the AER engine will provide a massive step-change in performance versus the old Toyota engine, plus Rebellion will be in the lightest category (850Kg) by 20Kg.......which is not a huge amount, but noteworthy.

It will be interesting who gets the job to upgrade the R1 chassis and do all the aero work, do Rebellion still trust Oreca? or will they do the work themselves?........ last I heard was Rebellion employed Julian Sole when Lola folded, so I think they could probably do everything in-house.......if they dont use Oreca, then its fair to assume there is a trust issue.

It seems with this information at least, rebellion may have a chance at a podium if...

Rebellion run a solid race with no hiccups, they ticked over quietly last year and finished well.

The factory teams end up with problems again, the last few hours and porsche was plagued with garage stops.

But this chance will be against the odds, and I can't see them finishing anywhere as high again this year.


Porsche will be in for a win this year, toyota will be defiantly going for that well deserved win, nissan will be driving around like a set of crazed animals and audi will do what audi do best.. Win..

[Mike E]

ORECA are doing the mods for the new engine installation.

"REBELLION Racing and their chassis partner ORECA are already working against the clock to develop a revised version of the Rebellion R-One to be fitted with the AER V6 twin-turbo engine."

http://www.rebellion-racing.com/news150203.html

[fefe]

dubble post.

[fefe]

Have you noticed it's been a driver swap in Rebellion ? Beche will race in car #13.
I wonder who had to move between Andrea Belicchi and Dominik Kraihamer ? Any ideas ?
I have asked Fabio Lemier and he will do both F-Nippon and WEC and I assume he will stay put in R-One #13.

[Hawkwood]

Originally Posted by fefe

Have you noticed it's been a driver swap in Rebellion ? Beche will race in car #13.
I wonder who had to move between Andrea Belicchi and Dominik Kraihamer ? Any ideas ?
I have asked Fabio Lemier and he will do both F-Nippon and WEC and I assume he will stay put in R-One #13.

It could simply be that Prost and Beche are the only drivers confirmed so far?
I would guess (assuming the same driver line-up) that if drivers are swapped about then it would be Leimer joining Prost and Heidfeld, with Beche switching back to the #13.

I still think Heidfeld is off to Nissan, and that would leave Prost, Beche and Leimer as the fastest by quite a way, it'd make sense to put them all in one car.

[fefe]

Originally Posted by Hawkwood

It could simply be that Prost and Beche are the only drivers confirmed so far?
I would guess (assuming the same driver line-up) that if drivers are swapped about then it would be Leimer joining Prost and Heidfeld, with Beche switching back to the #13.

I still think Heidfeld is off to Nissan, and that would leave Prost, Beche and Leimer as the fastest by quite a way, it'd make sense to put them all in one car.

I hope you are right, but I´m a bit concerned about Kraihamer, I guess I should not listen to my "brain ghosts", and take all of it with a pinch of salt. I asked Rebellion if Kraihamer´s sponsor will sponsor Rebellion this season, but no answer (yet) I think they will not answer, so I have to wait until they confirm their full line-up.

[chernaudi]

Now that the Oreca 05 (basically a cost-capped LMP2 version of the R-One) has broken cover, could it be said that some of the aero tweaks on it will feature on the R-One, as both are built by Oreca?

[TF110]

I think so. But perhaps a redone rear end to accomodate the wider rear wing.

[Deleted]

Okay Heidfeld said no to Nissan (...) and says he wants to "focus on" Formula E (which is interesting considering it doesn't conflict with WEC) so does it mean he's only gonna do Le Mans and couple of races with Rebellion this year. Or nothing at all. Or what. In any case looks as he's bored with sportscars already.
http://current-e.com/chatter/heidfel...ise-formula-e/

Meanwhile Rebellion has apparently become timing/sponsor partner of FIA WRX.

And sadly nothing on the car front as Oreca is slowly tearing the chassis to pieces for AER mod in some basement.

[fefe]

Why do they need a such incredibly long time to fix a chassis and put in a new engine ? How many employees is it ? ...sorry for my lack of patience.

[Victor_RO]

Originally Posted by fefe

Why do they need a such incredibly long time to fix a chassis and put in a new engine ? How many employees is it ? ...sorry for my lack of patience.

Oreca is a busy company. Maintaining the old 03/03Rs and the LMPC cars in the States with spare parts, building up multiple 05s, building the Nissan engines for LMP3, building Renault F3 engines, working on cars for the World Rallycross Championship, running the TS040s for TMG... I'm sure I missed some things on that list. They have many projects running at the same time, and re-engineering a car for a different engine is not as simple as it looks.

Slightly OT: There's a book out about the Ilmor 265E aka Mercedes-Benz 500I Indy 500 engine in 1994, how the project came to be and the course of its development. And the story that's told there spells out quite clearly the engineering challenge of fitting an engine into a car that was not initially designed for that engine. It's not easy and it takes a lot of design and manufacturing effort. And the later Oreca found out about the RV8KLM not being available, the later the completion of the redesign/rework for the AER V6 will be. The car will be ready whenever it's ready. And I'm quite sure that with all the other stuff they're doing, Oreca doesn't have the remaining resources/manpower available that Penske had in 1993-1994 (although for quality of effort, I'm willing to put both Oreca and Penske in a similar bracket).

[fefe]

Originally Posted by Victor_RO

Oreca is a busy company. Maintaining the old 03/03Rs and the LMPC cars in the States with spare parts, building up multiple 05s, building the Nissan engines for LMP3, building Renault F3 engines, working on cars for the World Rallycross Championship, running the TS040s for TMG... I'm sure I missed some things on that list. They have many projects running at the same time, and re-engineering a car for a different engine is not as simple as it looks.

Slightly OT: There's a book out about the Ilmor 265E aka Mercedes-Benz 500I Indy 500 engine in 1994, how the project came to be and the course of its development. And the story that's told there spells out quite clearly the engineering challenge of fitting an engine into a car that was not initially designed for that engine. It's not easy and it takes a lot of design and manufacturing effort. And the later Oreca found out about the RV8KLM not being available, the later the completion of the redesign/rework for the AER V6 will be. The car will be ready whenever it's ready. And I'm quite sure that with all the other stuff they're doing, Oreca doesn't have the remaining resources/manpower available that Penske had in 1993-1994 (although for quality of effort, I'm willing to put both Oreca and Penske in a similar bracket).

Thank you so much for your answer ! I have to wait, and I really hope they are ready for Spa 6h.

[GT6]

It would be nice if they were ready, but i think we will have to wait until Le mans

[chernaudi]

In short, the proof is in the pudding, or rather, a picture can say a thousand words:

Looking at the R-One's/Oreca 05's sidepods, there's very little room for larger radiators/oil coolers/intercoolers.

Granted, the Audi R18 for sure had very short and compact sidepods, but Audi are running micro-tube radiators for the main radiators, oil coolers and probably the intercoolers. Big problem, micro-tube coolers aren't good value on a price-capped car in a category or to a maker who's clientele mostly use NA V8 engines.

[fefe]

I don´t know if this is rumours or a reliable source ?
It seems like Dominik Kraihamer is re-signed, and his new team mates could be Daniel Abt and Alexandre Imperatori.

http://www.lessuissesaumans.ch/et-si...raiment-vrai16

[Deleted]

Someone over at another forum said that Oreca's delayed AER moddings will also prevent Spa 6h participation and force 'debut' only for Test Day =( But I haven't found any info about this elsewhere - not in english anyway - so does anyone have info on whether or not true or false?

Meanwhile their only "working" car has been busy again The old Lola ladies sure have been getting plenty of display time as of late.

[fefe]

Originally Posted by Chiana

Someone over at another forum said that Oreca's delayed AER moddings will also prevent Spa 6h participation and force 'debut' only for Test Day =( But I haven't found any info about this elsewhere - not in english anyway - so does anyone have info on whether or not true or false?

Meanwhile their only "working" car has been busy again The old Lola ladies sure have been getting plenty of display time as of late.

Not in english as you said, but here in french


"Rebellion is about to radically overhaul the composition of the crew of the R-One No. 13 by replacing (alongside Dominik Kraihamer who re-signed) Andrea Belicchi and Fabio Leimer (absorbed in his program in Japan Formula Nippon) by respectively German and Daniel ABT Genevois Alexandre IMPERATORI hitherto driver at KCMG. And the debut of the new version is now powered by the AER turbocharged be pushed Day Test at the 24 Hours of Le Mans, only two weeks before the race itself." - lessuissesaumans.ch

[Deleted]

Aww

I know Oreca's busy with business and million side operations, but could've constructed the car with little more than just one possible engine option in the first place!

At least it's gonna allow Kolles to close the gap even further, so you there is a chance that there could technically be some sort of fight in the privateer sub class, but still...

[TF110]

We dont know if Rebellion will even be as fast as the Kolles car. All the crap that gets thrown at them, theyre racing while Rebellion aren't. But like what was pointed out in the Nissan thread, you have to pass a crash test 30 days prior to an event. So the deadline for racing at Spa is the upcoming weeks. I think the WEC need to impose more penalties for teams not keeping their commitment.