Are Yellow Flags visible?

[Stuart Hill]

No I'm not having a pop at drivers !!!

There have been a couple of threads in the Marshal's Forum about the perceived lack of observation of yellow flags by various drivers:

ie: Just a sample thread

My question, as a Marshal of 18yrs but NEVER a Circuit driver, is as follows:

Just how visible, in decent weather conditions, is a Stationary Yellow Flag ?

I'm asking about Stationary because this is the start of the incident area and as such, should be the start of the "Controlled Speed" area, or so I am led to believe. All too often this is not the case, with the obvious results, and so I'm looking for driver's comments/thoughts as to whether there are any changes that could be made (ie flag positions) or whether it is down to more driver instruction/penalties to inforce the current regs?

I'm not for one second saying that drivers should race with one eye on the flag positions, you guys have enough going on around you.
I'm just interested in hearing your side of things.

in the meantime, please work hard over the winter so you've all got plenty of money to spend on your race cars so that I can look forward to my 19th year On-The-Bank.

[Chris Y]

Wouldn't this be better in the Racer's forum ?

Flag visibility (whatever colour) depends on the visibility of the flag point. Generally speaking, the best places for flag points on a corner are 1) outside, near as possible to the end of the braking zone. 2) inside, near as possible to the apex. 3) outside again, near as possible to the exit kerb.

Anywhere else, and it won't be spotted unless huge and waving furiously!

Thruxton is a circuit that does this well - very visible flag points.

[theracegypsy]

Flags need to be where drivers can see them. So we should ask them. Which forums do drivers read?

Seriously, Castle Combe looked into this point a couple of years ago, and got 2 club drivers to video the lap while we all used flags at each post, waved, stationary, and different colours. The result amazed Stewards, Clerks and marshals, but not drivers.

Ask Adrian Fawdington if you want to follow up as a training aid. It is good for the flag/observers talk.

[Stuart Hill]

Originally posted by Chris Y
Wouldn't this be better in the Racer's forum ?

Dear Mister/Miss Moderator.....

put it where you like, I don't mind.

[ss_collins]

I like it here, though would probably be better there, stationary yellows , hmm, depends where on the track they are and what track, Its worth thinking about where drivers are looking - its often not at the MP's.

[graeme]

Some of the yellows are a bit washed out and are almost white, which doesn't help. But make them sequened with flashing lights and some drivers would still miss 'em...

[Red Dog]

well I've done 3 seasons now and this season I missed (did not see) yellows two meetings in a row both during qualifying and was questioned by the CoC. I had never had a problem before.

Some of the flags are well above the drivers eye line and off to one side and if you are concentrating on lining up another car to pass at a corner you can't look away for a moment, particularly where the track is narrow.

It is a split second thing, you simply cannot be looking around as you aim at the apex. If the flag is out of peripheral vision then it can be missed.

[ginettag27]

They can be missed, but some drivers are more prone to missing them than others, ahem..

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by ginettag27
They can be missed, but some drivers are more prone to missing them than others, ahem..

If drivers can not take the time to glance at a point put there to save damage to property and people there is something wrong.

If your driving takes so much concentration just to nail an apex to the exclusion of a bunch of other important things then you are probably out of your depth.

[ginettag27]

Tell that to those who miss them with alarming regularity!!

I do notice them and do slow down, but others blatantly do not. It's not my place to admonish them. In my opinion more TV cameras are needed to give factual proof of problems - at Donington we had more drivers than ever called to the CoC. At other circuits nothing happens.

[Bob Pearson]

275, you are well out of order. If all drivers who had missed a stationary yellow at some time stayed away because you had identified them as out of their depth then this season would be the last in this country.
The most common reason for missing a stationary yellow is it being hidden from view by a car which you are overtaking.
Bear in mind it isn't like driving to work, an overtaking move can take up to half a lap and passing two marshals posts in the course of such an operation is quite normal.
The risk of passing under a waved yellow without seeing it is much less, because we have the stationary as well and so double the chance of seeing one or the other.
There are points on any circuit where "glancing around" is out of the question and it is nothing to do with being out of one's depth, when a flat out corner is 140 + mph concentration is a requirement.
Chris identified Thruxton as a good example of flag positioning, largely speaking I agree, but if a stationary yellow is displayed on the left of the track shortly after Nobles and you have decided to try to run outside of someone on the exit of Nobles and so inside into Goodwood the flag will be hidden by the car you are passing. If there is a waved on the apex of Goodwood however you will see it and all will be OK.
On a flying unimpeded lap by a good driver in a sinle seater Nobles and Goodwood will be flat, the idea of glancing to the left as you line up the right hand turn as suggested by 275 earlier will probably result in the driver getting the bus back from Andover.

[Revracing]

Dificult one this, in my experience (karts) stationary yellows can be very difficult to see, as Bob Pearson correctly outlined, it has been compounded over the years by the practise of moving the marshall posts away from the track side and the drivers eye line (for legitimate safety reasons), the only definate way to see them is to make a concious effort to check the post as you approach it, which itself has it's own dangers.
There is a narrow window of opportunity when it's possible to glance at the post but when committed the drivers got his/her hands full.... and thats without the complications of overtaking...

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Bob Pearson
275, you are well out of order. If all drivers who had missed a stationary yellow at some time stayed away because you had identified them as out of their depth then this season would be the last in this country.

The most common reason for missing a stationary yellow is it being hidden from view by a car which you are overtaking.
Bear in mind it isn't like driving to work, an overtaking move can take up to half a lap and passing two marshals posts in the course of such an operation is quite normal.

The risk of passing under a waved yellow without seeing it is much less, because we have the stationary as well and so double the chance of seeing one or the other.
There are points on any circuit where "glancing around" is out of the question and it is nothing to do with being out of one's depth, when a flat out corner is 140 + mph concentration is a requirement.

Chris identified Thruxton as a good example of flag positioning, largely speaking I agree, but if a stationary yellow is displayed on the left of the track shortly after Nobles and you have decided to try to run outside of someone on the exit of Nobles and so inside into Goodwood the flag will be hidden by the car you are passing. If there is a waved on the apex of Goodwood however you will see it and all will be OK.

On a flying unimpeded lap by a good driver in a sinle seater Nobles and Goodwood will be flat, the idea of glancing to the left as you line up the right hand turn as suggested by 275 earlier will probably result in the driver getting the bus back from Andover.

Hmmm, well said Bob, but still not convinced. Its not as though you are on some Mountain Road haring along seeing the corners for the first time. Drivers usually have had a few laps around the place in practice and qualifying where you should have picked up where everything is located AND where you need to "glance", squint sideways, use peripheral vision or whatever.

Once you know the lie of the land (and here I will probably get another spray!) part of your dicing and setting up an overtaking move should take into account the need for a mandatory check of the Flag Post each time around.

If you can see you are putting yourself into a postion which would compromise the regular requirement to "glance" then surely you need to change tack and manouvere so that you do sight the post.

I don't think some drivers give a tinkers cuss about the consequences of their actions. The majority do. Some drivers treat officials and their signals with disdain, others do not and there are all manner of variations on that theme.

I don't think you can compare 140 Km/h on a race track by an experienced racer "in the groove" to what people might do on the public roads.

My main gripe is with Drivers who just cannot seem to cope with doing more than two things at once!! I'm sure you have come across the types I am speaking of.

[Bob Pearson]

275,
Let me set out my stall to you. Marshals on this forum who have read my postings on this subject will already know this. I am firmly on your side, my belief is that anyone contravening a yellow flag should be excluded or lose his qualifying time regardless of any "excuse". I also realise that some drivers will make an innocent mistake along the lines I have descibed and suffer for it. I believe that it is a small price to pay for returning to a situation where you can work safely at trackside without a red flag.
The point I was trying to make was that it simply isn't as easy as it may appear. The idea of trying to overtake only when you know that it can be completed before any posts are passed which cannot be seen at the start of the pass would almost wipe out passing. Very few passes are an opportunist thing.
Certainly the drivers you describe do exist and I am the first to back you in any campaign against them. I don't know what other drivers think, but I find that it simply is not as easy as you appear to think it is, the whole concept of putting a car in a different position to see a marshals post I find out of the question, the idea of doing that while trying to pass someone who is doing about 1 mph slower than you, has seen you coming and is trying to discourage you by sqeezing you against the grass just isn't possible.
Oh and by the way, I take it you meant 140MPH.

[Chigley]

275, Are you missing the point of why we (marshals) are there. We are there to watch 100% committed racing, which requires 100% of the drivers concentration (hopefully) and communicate to drivers if something is amiss or needs their attention diverting. To do this we have to INTERUPT their concentration by being visible, obvious, flamboyant etc..... and get them to look at us, not expecting them to look at us. A stationary yellow can be shaken to emphasis its present when drivers appear to be looking elsewhere, its quite effective at announcing its presence.

[b1ackcr0w]

Here's a thought, just as an experiment for one meeting.

Why not get all the competitors at a meeting to count the amount of green flags they can spot at the start of their race. No penalty if they don't get the right number. But the results would tell you 2 things:-

1. How many posts might have a problem.
2. What proportion of drivers are missing them even in non race conditions.

Maybe if we did this we might have some facts to work with?

[Sheila M]

With respect to everyone here, I think this bears out my idea that EVERY driver should spend some time as a marshal to aid communication (and I include the flag system in that as it is the marshals' way of communicating with drivers).

Sheila

[mark ch]

For those without a race car, try playing grand turismo 2 do one slow lap and spot the marshals post, they are there on the new circuits then do it whilst racing.

As a marshal I have to admit I miss a lot of the posts concentrating instead on winning even when trying to spot the posts. It's humbling.... And every easy to see why drivers can miss flags....

[Piglet]

Originally posted by b1ackcr0w
Here's a thought, just as an experiment for one meeting.

Why not get all the competitors at a meeting to count the amount of green flags they can spot at the start of their race. No penalty if they don't get the right number. But the results would tell you 2 things:-

1. How many posts might have a problem.
2. What proportion of drivers are missing them even in non race conditions.

Maybe if we did this we might have some facts to work with?

[tongueincheek] good idea, trouble is it might just tell you how many drivers can't count!![/tongueincheek]

[b1ackcr0w]

Green flags John? Didn't even see the breakdown!

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by b1ackcr0w
Here's a thought, just as an experiment for one meeting.

Why not get all the competitors at a meeting to count the amount of green flags they can spot at the start of their race. No penalty if they don't get the right number. But the results would tell you 2 things:-

1. How many posts might have a problem.
2. What proportion of drivers are missing them even in non race conditions.

Maybe if we did this we might have some facts to work with?

Don'y know what the procedure is elsewhere in the world but here the stewards ask for a waved yelow at every point BEFORE any racing happens on a particular day. They cruise around and assess visibility etc. I can recall some points being asked to wave a flag from a different postion as a result of these insections.

[275 GTB-4]

Originally posted by Chigley
275, Are you missing the point of why we (marshals) are there. We are there to watch 100% committed racing, which requires 100% of the drivers concentration (hopefully) and communicate to drivers if something is amiss or needs their attention diverting. To do this we have to INTERUPT their concentration by being visible, obvious, flamboyant etc..... and get them to look at us, not expecting them to look at us. A stationary yellow can be shaken to emphasis its present when drivers appear to be looking elsewhere, its quite effective at announcing its presence.

Chigs, I'm stunned by that post - have you beem Marshaling very long?

What is the point of advising drivers to obey Flags if they are too busy being 100% committed. Part of racing is observing the rules. Jump the start and you get pinged. Punt someone off deliberately and you get pinged. Disobey a Flag signal and you get pinged. What do you want us to do? Run out on the track waving a handkerchief to attract a drivers attention who is 100% concentrating? Bulldust!

Drivers know that checking the flag points is all part of racing.

[KayBee]

Originally posted by 275 GTB-4
Don'y know what the procedure is elsewhere in the world but here the stewards ask for a waved yelow at every point BEFORE any racing happens on a particular day. They cruise around and assess visibility etc. I can recall some points being asked to wave a flag from a different postion as a result of these insections.

This also happens in the UK but as far as I know only at bike meetings.

The Stewards also request that the Safety Car flag and Black and Black and Orange flags plus numbers are also shown at those flag points where they will be displayed during any sessions if needed.

[Woolley]

Sorry 275, but at 15 years experience, I'm with Chigley and Bob. Just as I can wave a blue flag at the wrong car, a driver can sometimes find circumstances where it just isn't feasible to spot a flag. I consider it my job to try to spot a driver who hasn't seen the flag and do what I can to help. Shaking the stationary, pointing all help, and on occasions I've used the driver being overtaken to pass the message on! As the flag posts get further from the track it's getting harder as you can't get eye contact, and I suspect this is part of the reason this sort of infringement is increasing, allied to the bad examples set further up the ladder.

And believe me, drivers, you can usually tell who has made a mistake and missed a flag, and who is desregarding it or not paying proper attention.

[Tim Falce]

I sometimes find stationary flags quite difficult to spot. I try to keep my main focus on the road, other cars and corners and use my peripheral vision for spotting flags. A stationary flag blends in with the background, whereas something waved is easier to spot. I usualy find the most difficult post to spot is the start/finish line as they are nearly always hidden by armco or fencing and unless the marshall leans right out you cant see much, Snetterton and Brands seem to be the worst for this, imho.