Sand traps

[Kirk]

As I watched experienced drivers like MW, Kimi, MS and Pedro (a couple of times) leave the track, I couldn't help but wonder how these guys would have fared on other less forgiving circuits. Bahrain has generous amounts of pavement and one could speculate that it is for that reason that the drivers take advantage of that, and drive closer to the edge, knowing they will not be beached. It can be quite exciting. This leads to the questions. Should there be more designs like Bahrain? Are sand traps too abundant and over used in F1?

[Adam43]

Well I think we should have some variety, so some circuits like that are great. There should also be a Monaco and Spa though. Mix-'em up.

[Kicking-back]

Agree with Adam - a variety of tracks is good.

And I agree that Bahrain does encourage people to push the envelope.

[Mathias]

On TV, of course, it's great, but not so for the spectators at the circuit. Did you notice the long-distance views of the circuit - all the grandstands are on the S/F straight, and just around the first and last corners. There is nowhere to go to look at the rest of the circuit and, even if there was, you wouldn't be able to see much of the race cos you'd be bleeming miles away beyond a massive run-off area and a debris fence.

Imagine if they did that at Silverstone! Feeling "close to the action" is hard enough already.

[Super Tourer]

Variety is good but the wider tarmac run offs are safer and result in less retirements IMO.

The issue with gravel traps is they are designed assuming that the car will need to reduce speed very quickly. The flip side of this (literally) is that if the angle of entry is side on, gravel traps simply flip the cars over and when they are airborne they have no braking!

As we saw in Bahrain, Webber was going at quite high speed when he went off, but because it was tarmac the car was still braking and able to stop without hitting anything - and of coures continue.

Adam is right we need circuits like Monaco where there is no margin for error (which is part of the drivers art), but maybe more hard standing run off's rather - maybe gravel (or a similar speed retarder) should be used at the end of straights, and use tarmac around other corners?

Another point is does the track 'safety' impact on how drivers attack the track, or does it become less of a factor when the lights go green?

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Mathias

Imagine if they did that at Silverstone! Feeling "close to the action" is hard enough already.

Well they have at a lot of the corners. Viewing at Silverstone is dreadful.

[thejester]

Sakhir's run off areas surely encourage overtaking attempts, even clumsy (DLR) ones. I hate seeing drivers with carspeed advantage stuck behind slower guys because they know that anything but a perfect passing opportunity will result in a beached car. In Pedro's case, for example, he could have a shot knowing he had nothing to lose, he could fly off, catch up and have another go.

As others have said though, you must have variety. Gotta have the unforgiving armcomonster tracks to really sort 'em out!

BTW, regarding Webber's off : wtf happened there?

[Woolley]

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

Another point is does the track 'safety' impact on how drivers attack the track, or does it become less of a factor when the lights go green?

Not F1, but when they moved the wall back at Mallory Park it knocked a sizeable amount off the lap record. The track wasn't changed at all.

If there's no real penalty for a mistake (at Spa it wasn't even slower to get it wrong at Eau Rouge) then the drivers are more likely to risk it.

[GP Racer]

It takes an awful lot of space to get runoffs like Bahrain has, and like Mathias said, the crowds would be a mile from the action... Then again, there were no crowds at Bahrain.

But thats another issue...

[JeremySmith]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

It takes an awful lot of space to get runoffs like Bahrain has, and like Mathias said, the crowds would be a mile from the action... Then again, there were no crowds at Bahrain.

But thats another issue...

It seemed to me that there was a very small crowd at that race.. Strange venue realy... Nice track in the middle of nowhere?

[Kicking-back]

Originally Posted by JeremySmith

It seemed to me that there was a very small crowd at that race.. Strange venue realy... Nice track in the middle of nowhere?

Not so much that.

Bahrain's population is only 800,000.

And the race was held on a weekday.

It would be equivalent to having the British Grand Prix on Tuesday afternoon.

[Mr V]

Is sunday a weekday out in Bahrain then? :confused:

[Kicking-back]

Yes, it is.

The weekend is Thursday and Friday.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

Variety is good but the wider tarmac run offs are safer and result in less retirements IMO.

The issue with gravel traps is they are designed assuming that the car will need to reduce speed very quickly. The flip side of this (literally) is that if the angle of entry is side on, gravel traps simply flip the cars over and when they are airborne they have no braking!

As we saw in Bahrain, Webber was going at quite high speed when he went off, but because it was tarmac the car was still braking and able to stop without hitting anything - and of coures continue.

Adam is right we need circuits like Monaco where there is no margin for error (which is part of the drivers art), but maybe more hard standing run off's rather - maybe gravel (or a similar speed retarder) should be used at the end of straights, and use tarmac around other corners?

Another point is does the track 'safety' impact on how drivers attack the track, or does it become less of a factor when the lights go green?

If wider tarmac run-off areas DOES lead to fewer retirements is tat a good thing? Or does it just make the drivers lazy?

I never realised before that if a car was airborne it wasn't slowing down! I was sure air-resistance would actually lead to a slight slowing effect?

Personally I would be all in favour of a wide tarmac run-off area that a) slowed the cars BUT b) penalised the drivers who took to them. I wouldn't want to see the cars damaged by going off but there ought to be someway to cause a penalty for the driver who takes to the run-off area.

As far as more tracks like Baharain is concerned they could only spring up where it was a new development. It would cost almost as much to change say Brands Hatch to the Baharain model as it would to build a new circuit from scratch.

There are too many nondiscript tracks currently on the Grand Prix schedule. If the cars are getting too fast for the tracks it is the cars that should change not the tracks!

[neil_davidson2]

Replacing sand/gravel with tarmac is fine as long as the driver still has the ability to control the car in terms of brakes & steering. However if you go into a corner and suffer brake failure (for example) you will hit the wall harder since the gravel does have some retarding effect. The answer to this in Bahrain is to make the runoffs the size of airfields since they have plenty of space to play with - most other tracks don't have this luxury and has been mentioned already the spectators are far enough away from the track as it is.

So IMHO 99% of the time the tarmac works better than gravel since spin and recoveries are now spin and continues. And yes it does mean that drivers are "braver" going into corners with tarmac runoffs since they are less worried about making a mistake that results in their dropping out of the race.

[Super Tourer]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

If wider tarmac run-off areas DOES lead to fewer retirements is tat a good thing? Or does it just make the drivers lazy?

I never realised before that if a car was airborne it wasn't slowing down! I was sure air-resistance would actually lead to a slight slowing effect?

Personally I would be all in favour of a wide tarmac run-off area that a) slowed the cars BUT b) penalised the drivers who took to them. I wouldn't want to see the cars damaged by going off but there ought to be someway to cause a penalty for the driver who takes to the run-off area.

As far as more tracks like Baharain is concerned they could only spring up where it was a new development. It would cost almost as much to change say Brands Hatch to the Baharain model as it would to build a new circuit from scratch.

There are too many nondiscript tracks currently on the Grand Prix schedule. If the cars are getting too fast for the tracks it is the cars that should change not the tracks!

They are slowing the cars down hence this years new regs on tyres and aero.

The point I was making about gravel traps is the increased danger of a car digging in and flipping over at which point the driver is a passenger waiting for the momentum to stop and with no possiblity of slowing or steering the car, as opposed to tarmac where the drive is able to continue to brake, steer and gain control.

I appreciate that few circuits in the world can afford the luxury of run off's like Bahrain, however one of the talking points of the race - the duel between Webber and de la Rosa - was only possible because both drivers were able to push to the limit and beyond and continue. If there had been gravel both would have finished their race in it.

[bestfit]

It must also be remembered that most tracks are used by both cars and bikes. While tarmac runoffs may be a good idea for cars they would greatly increase the danger factor for bikes. Sand/gravel traps are designed to retard the speed of the car/bike as quickly and safetly as possible. When are car has an off it is (usually) still on 4 wheels and can be controlled whereas a bike is riderless and without the sandtrap to slow the bike you would have 150kg+ high speed missile potentially aimed at the rider, crowd, flag marshalls etc.

For mine, leave the sandtraps. It is the driver/rider's job to stay on the track. If they leave the track then the focus should be on the safety of everyone concerned, not giving the driver a second chance.

[Super Tourer]

Good point about the tracks needing to be bike compatable as well.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

The point I was making about gravel traps is the increased danger of a car digging in and flipping over at which point the driver is a passenger waiting for the momentum to stop and with no possiblity of slowing or steering the car, as opposed to tarmac where the drive is able to continue to brake, steer and gain control.

Couldn't agree more. Gravel traps can be very dangerous. However should there be no penalty for drivers who calculating over drive knowing that they can recover in the acres (or should that be hectares?) of tarmac?

[Super Tourer]

The penalty is they lose time and or track position, but can carry on and try to regain them.

[Kirk]

Yes, it cost Webber a podium finish in Bahrain but that beats a dnf. To see a driver hung up in gravel and unable to continue, is most disappointing for me.

I DO like the fact that drivers can push harder; but as has been pointed out, for many "traditional" circuits, it is not feasible to have those huge paved run-offs. Still, for the future, I'd like to see more tracks like Bahrain.

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

The penalty is they lose time and or track position, but can carry on and try to regain them.

Unfortunately this doesn't translate to other tracks where a similar incident would lead to retirement.

Kimmi's blooper only lost him time, if he had done something similar at Spa he would have been out of the race!

[thejester]

Originally Posted by Super Tourer

The penalty is they lose time and or track position, but can carry on and try to regain them.

And in an incident like Webber's a spin into the tarmac run off does serious damage to the now unchangeable tyres

[maximus]

Talking about mixing up tracks what about having a different race every year for the European GP? I thought that was the original and great idea and makes things more interesting. I want to see F1 back at Donington! Its a much better for spectators regarding your view of the track.

[TomS]

Can F1's have a race there without destroying the track?...as in larger runoffs being built and all that rubbish