Sportscars that never raced

[FIRE]

At the moment I am reading Peter Morgan's book about the Porsche 956/962 (great book!). In 1981 several manufacturers had designed cars for the new Group C class but the full technical details of this new class were not published before the latter part of the year. So these manufacturers took a risk because the rules were not confirmed. To comply the rules Lola had to redesign the T600 which became the T610. If I am correct the T600 turned up in IMSA. Like Lola also BMW had designed a Group C car but after FISA had published the rules they withdrew completeley.

Did BMW really design/build/test a car or existed it only on paper?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by FIRE

To comply the rules Lola had to redesign the T600 which became the T610. If I am correct the T600 turned up in IMSA. Like Lola also BMW had designed a Group C car but after FISA had published the rules they withdrew completeley.

Did BMW really design/build/test a car or existed it only on paper?

I remember the Lola - it had several guises including an evolutionary Mazda rotary version in GTP at one point and Cossie engines in Europe?

The BMW pointis interesting - did this end up as the GTP version that ran only for a year or two (March based?) in 1986/7. looked highly promising and then got canned, or was that an entirely separate project?

[fausto]

The BMW thing could be the March-built M1C, raced in IMSA in 1981, with M1 straight6 and then Turbo4 engines...

[FIRE]

Originally Posted by fausto

The BMW thing could be the March-built M1C, raced in IMSA in 1981, with M1 straight6 and then Turbo4 engines...

...
The March design team produced a prototype BMW-powered car called the M1C. David Hobbs and Marc Surer raced this in the IMSA series of 1981. Basically underpowered against the Porsche 935s, the MIC nevertheless earned two pole positions and three top six finishes.
...

Source: http://www.johnstarkeycars.com/pages...ticles_13.html

I get the impression the only BMW part is the engine. Why would a German company hire a British company to design a car?

[FIRE]

I did some searching on the web and I think the BMW M1C/1 is the BMW Group C project which was stopped in '81

At www.marchives.com (great website) I found this "March 1981 Newsletter #3"

So the car was designed by BMW in conjuction with March and I understand the BMW M1C/1 (= March 81P) was allowed in IMSA GTP but not in Group C, so March planned a M1C/2 (= March 82G) which is a full Group C car. Correct me if I am wrong.

[fausto]

...finally, some GKW pics I took @ Monza, back in 1988

http://twitpic.com/dlekh
http://twitpic.com/dlelb
http://twitpic.com/dlenb

the car is now the property of an Italian gentleman driver who plans to race it in historic events, can be seen @ http://www.time-to-lose.it/wp-conten...raio_60dpi.pdf page 16

[Graham Goodwin]

Another for the list is the Lindsay LMP675 - Think a mock-up appeared at an early Goodwood Festival of Speed

The reference to an MG project I'm guessing refers to a GT version of the MG SV that never appeared.

[ensign14]

Many thanks, fausto! Those pics are like gold dust.

[betablocker]

i saw a alfa group c with a v12 engine, which ive never seen before in the paddock in monza the other month at the grp c event there but it wasnt with the group c cars. it looked like a latter grp c car narrow bubble canopy posssibly twin rear wing it was a runner as well.

on unraced cars, how about a mclaren mercedes SLR made into a race car for mclaren before the production car even made it to production produced at activa before it went bust, but i seem to recall mclaren never collected it??

and also the new ascari the replacement to the lmp 1 car, got to the drawing board and i believe a model made before klaus started to slow the racecar project down...........

[rich07]

Originally Posted by betablocker

on unraced cars, how about a mclaren mercedes SLR made into a race car for mclaren before the production car even made it to production produced at activa before it went bust, but i seem to recall mclaren never collected it??

Intrigued about this, is there any info out there about this car and what happened to it?

[pablocomics]

Originally Posted by betablocker

i saw a alfa group c with a v12 engine, which ive never seen before in the paddock in monza the other month at the grp c event there but it wasnt with the group c cars. it looked like a latter grp c car narrow bubble canopy posssibly twin rear wing it was a runner as well.

on unraced cars, how about a mclaren mercedes SLR made into a race car for mclaren before the production car even made it to production produced at activa before it went bust, but i seem to recall mclaren never collected it??

and also the new ascari the replacement to the lmp 1 car, got to the drawing board and i believe a model made before klaus started to slow the racecar project down...........

Someone said Alfa Romeo?





Have a nice day

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by autoavia

A friend of mine knew Costas Los and around 1983 he was involved with a Lyncar C2 car. It was displayed inside the circuit near Copse painted yellow for the 83 or 84 1000 Kms as it wasn't ready to run. I think it did one or two Thundersports races but does anyone know if it ever ran in a World Sportscar Championship race.

The Lyncar arrived on the scene around the same time as the equally ugly Ceekar, mid to end of 1983.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by pablocomics

Someone said Alfa Romeo?





Have a nice day

Explain further!

[ensign14]

Ooh, I think I need a cold shower.

[fausto]

Originally Posted by ghinzani

The Lyncar arrived on the scene around the same time as the equally ugly Ceekar, mid to end of 1983.

Introduced to the press late 1983 (Brands Hatch European C'ship round), debuted early 1984 (IIRC the Lyncar in a club race).

[Ultimo]

That Alfa is called either the Alfa Romeo Group C or the SE048 - more in this thread.

Does anyone know who currently owns it?

[Cuttlefish]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

That Alfa is called either the Alfa Romeo Group C or the SE048 - more in this thread.

Does anyone know who currently owns it?

The Alfa is gorgeous! I just got back from the Montery Historics, and the Group C race was the highlight of the weekend, though there were far too many 962/956s. A Mazda RX792p was the only car in that thread that I saw, though it was driven by Patrick Dempsey

Reading through the thread linked above, it obvious where Audi stole the idea from the R15's nose from! http://tentenths.com/forum/attachmen...2&d=1235928360

[Tim the Grey]

What a pretty thing that is. V12 too. Shame I never saw it.

I'm off for a lie down now. Rub down with a dampened copy of MN...

[ghinzani]

Originally Posted by ensign14

Was it the same Motori Moderni seen smoking away in the first F1 Minardi?

Yes it did run in a M188 hack in 1989 first, but Minardi rejected it so Enzo Coloni ran it the next year in one of his C3's, having 'sold' his team to them. When it tanked he bought it back for song.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Cuttlefish

The Alfa is gorgeous! I just got back from the Montery Historics, and the Group C race was the highlight of the weekend, though there were far too many 962/956s. A Mazda RX792p was the only car in that thread that I saw, though it was driven by Patrick Dempsey

Reading through the thread linked above, it obvious where Audi stole the idea from the R15's nose from! http://tentenths.com/forum/attachmen...2&d=1235928360

Wow, that would have been great to see all those old GTP cars at Monterey. That Mazda was something.

That pic of the old Pug is kinda funny. Inspiration can come from anywhere I guess!

[Ultimo]

The Alfa Group C car is a bit perplexing. It is apparently in Alfa Romeo's museum and there's a sign next to it (unfortunately I cannot attach the image I don't think) that indicated it has a 3.5L V10 - Alfa's own engine. The sign dates the car as coming from 1986.

An engine is also featured in the museum outside the car. Contrast this with the photos of the car where you can see easily that it's a V12 and what do you get? A bit of a puzzle I think. Did Alfa change the engine that was in the car at some point? Does anyone know more about this somewhat mysterious machine?

[dj choc ice]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

The Alfa Group C car is a bit perplexing. It is apparently in Alfa Romeo's museum and there's a sign next to it (unfortunately I cannot attach the image I don't think) that indicated it has a 3.5L V10 - Alfa's own engine. The sign dates the car as coming from 1986.

An engine is also featured in the museum outside the car. Contrast this with the photos of the car where you can see easily that it's a V12 and what do you get? A bit of a puzzle I think. Did Alfa change the engine that was in the car at some point? Does anyone know more about this somewhat mysterious machine?

it had a 3.5 litre V12, rumour was it was a hack of the Ferrari 3.5 litre F1 lump and that it was designed/penned by Dallara and it was meant to debut in 92 i think but of course Sports Car Racing was teetering on the edge of oblivion at that point and it was axed, a massive shame, its such a beautiful car, and i imagine on open side pipe's, that V12 must of been savagely blood curdlingly loud.

[MulsanneMike]

Originally Posted by dj choc ice

it had a 3.5 litre V12, rumour was it was a hack of the Ferrari 3.5 litre F1 lump and that it was designed/penned by Dallara and it was meant to debut in 92 i think but of course Sports Car Racing was teetering on the edge of oblivion at that point and it was axed, a massive shame, its such a beautiful car, and i imagine on open side pipe's, that V12 must of been savagely blood curdlingly loud.

Hopefully I can crack this nut in the near future...I'm in contact with the car's designer and he seems willing to answer my questions or research what he can't recall. But we're on a 3 month delay as he won't have any time until November to read through my questionnaire or have a look through his files...so...cross your fingers!

[Ted bennett]

Fingers crossed !

[Tim the Grey]

Ooh, ooh, ooh! Good luck, Mike.