Dutch 240z race car

[phhok]

[phhok]

[Zpoint]

Originally Posted by phhok

you are right,there was nothing changed to that car apart from the tires.
He enterd that car for only one race to have some fun.
When his lap time,wish a rally car, was 1.47 the idee came to build a race car for the next season.
I have some foto's of that race with the rally lamps still on the car.

This must be the 'fun' ex-car rally car. I believe this picture was taken ‘cornering’ the “Hunzerug”. Behind the double barrier is the entrance to the paddock.

[Zpoint]

Originally Posted by phhok

....and the understeer, visible at the left lamp cover
Ben this is your car when young

This I find an excellent photo, it reveals the power coming out of the dust.. the huge aggressive tyres. Love it.

[phhok]

Real (his)story, so far I know, of the ex-works 240z's left after the 1971 Monte

TKS33-SA-985 ( car # 62) used by Rauno Altonen second in class fifth overall

TKS33-SA-986 used by Tony Fall 10th overall

TKS33-SA-987 RHD used as training/spare car

TKS33-SA-988 used as training/spare car

985 chanced into 67-54-RU used by Rob in the RAC, on the 25th stage out of the rally with alternator problems
Later sold to a Dutch collector

986 used in a fun race at Z'voort in complete rally trim, later used to build a group 4 race car for Hans Ernst director of the Z'voort race track

(to be continued)

[phhok]

987 RHD used by Rob in some rallycross and later sold to Old Woking Datsun dealer in England for Tony Fall te use in the Tap rally
He DNF beause driving up-side down is a little bit slow.

988 used by Rob in the Acropolis rally.Not used to the massive understeer Rob wend of the road in the second stage, back to the 32th place
At the moment of retiring ( again) with alternator problem he was allready back at the 6th place.
Then used in the TAP rally, in the third night a France Alpine spun in front of him to avoid driving over there legs he only could steer up to a banking and ended up like Tony up-side down.The second 240z on his roof.
The car was completely rebuild and made a group 4 race car.

[phhok]

985 was sold to a Dutch collector in 1973
This man was allready in his middle age and nothing to do with race of rally's, in the contrary he made train timetables.
Completely mad of cars, if I recall it right he bought also the ex-work's Honda from Rob
With the car, straight as from the RAC,he bought also a huge amount of parts,even complete engine's, diff's, gearboxe's etc.

After about a year he called Rob that he needed a new nose and some wheels because a relative of him drove the car on snow into the rails.
He got a G-nose ( in Japan cold a Blunt nose)
And from that moment on the cars whereabout was for nearly 35 years a mystery

Till Z-spec owner of a Tuning company in the south of holland heard some spooky story's about the car.
When he finaly found the car he bought it from the 93 years old owner.
The car was painted in a kind of dark red, heavy underbody coating, even fitted with a towing hook aqnd the original rally seat's where missing

He needed a motor saw to free the car out of the undergrowth, and found the extra engine, gearboxe's etc in a nearby old iron container

Z-spec is determinated to make it the best only surviving real ex-works rally 240z in Europe

[phhok]

now I know zpoint must make a replica of car#5

[phhok]

[phhok]

The 986 was used to build a group 4 race car for Hans Ernst
After one season Hans decided to stop racing the car, even with body building lessons he found the steering of the car to heavy.
I think Rob was happy with his decision because the car was to much of a handfull for Hans and after many times that the fifth wheel came off even with six special steel dowels in the crankshaft and exploding bakelite rotor
arms, trough chancing back the gears from fifth to second gear in one go.

The car was sold to a Belgium Datsun dealer Miroux, his sons are still racing the car in Belgium Classic races in the same configuration as build bij Rob 35 years ago

[phhok]

the 988
I think that building a group 4 race car from the in the TAP crashed 988 was one of Rob's worst decisions in his live.
Without any hyelp from Japan nearly everything he had to make by hand, for example it was nearly impossible to stop the car after 2 or 3 laps with the drum brakes at the rear.
Big ventilated floating disk's with for pot calipers from aLola found there way to the front.
A home made twin cylinder brake bias pedal system fitted.
At the rear, lugs welded to fit 4 pots calipers and ventilated disk's
But all this was not yet on the Japanese FIA Homologation paper
So Rob made pictures of the modification and photocopied that on the papers and made sure that the pictures where on the dark side.
Then he went out with his family to have diner in a japanese restaurant, he asked the owner to write something like "cheap and nice food here"
next to the photo's and ready he was for scrutinering.

After ending the realation with datsun netherland the car was brought over to Janspeed by Han Tjan a employe of Datsun Netherland and friend of Janos Odor.
They made a turbo engine and replaced the steering to the right side this will give on a right hand track like Z'voort ca 1 to 1,5 sec faster lap times.
After wind tunnel test's they placed a very large wing at the rear, so far I know was the turbo engine no succes and was the car not much faster as the non extra things version.
Now the car is still RHD but with a sound non blown 3 ltr engine and very fast in the hands of Ben240z

[kurtiejjj]

@phhok: You should write a novel Fascinating stuff!

[ben240z]

Originally Posted by kurtiejjj

@phhok: You should write a novel Fascinating stuff!

i second that. there is not enough written about the pioneers of the non works driver/mechanic self built and run cars of the era.

The challenges faced and overcome by inginuaty, the many late night hours in the workshops, the adventures of just getting to the startline let alone getting to the finishline.

The story of Rob Grant and his antics in the springbok races is well worth researching and I feel sure that the behind the scenes adventures of Rob Jannsen would be just as fascinating.

The trouble is with these guys from the 70's is that they were too modest to appreciate what they were actually doing for the sport and therefore never thought that others would be interested in what they were doing.

You only have to sit down with a member of the older generation and start them talking about thier youth to get some really interesting stories. But once you start them talking you do not want them to stop because there is soooooo much to hear and learn.

Keep the narrative coming please phhok it is fascinating stuff and you never know one it may encourage some one to find Rob or his co driver/mechanics/pit crew and then they could join in

[ben240z]

Originally Posted by ben240z

i second that. there is not enough written about the pioneers of the non works driver/mechanic self built and run cars of the era.

The challenges faced and overcome by inginuaty, the many late night hours in the workshops, the adventures of just getting to the startline let alone getting to the finishline.

The story of Rob Grant and his antics in the springbok races is well worth researching and I feel sure that the behind the scenes adventures of Rob Jannsen would be just as fascinating.

The trouble is with these guys from the 70's is that they were too modest to appreciate what they were actually doing for the sport and therefore never thought that others would be interested in what they were doing.

You only have to sit down with a member of the older generation and start them talking about thier youth to get some really interesting stories. But once you start them talking you do not want them to stop because there is soooooo much to hear and learn.

Keep the narrative coming please phhok it is fascinating stuff and you never know one it may encourage some one to find Rob or his co driver/mechanics/pit crew and then they could join in

It would not be surprising to find that they were all sitting in the garden watching the gerrainiums grow unaware of the real interest there is in their stories

[Zpoint]

Originally Posted by phhok

985 was sold to a Dutch collector in 1973
This man was allready in his middle age and nothing to do with race of rally's, in the contrary he made train timetables.
Completely mad of cars, if I recall it right he bought also the ex-work's Honda from Rob

What is wrong with those railroad people; one buys a works car and the other drives a replica…..

Originally Posted by phhok

985 - Z-spec is determinated to make it the best only surviving real ex-works rally 240z in Europe

Ho ho, Not the only surviving works ………. Have a look at this http://www.z-pointt.nl/workscars/rac71/index.html that car is finisht now and it also is a beauty.
Have to dig in the papers to find photo’s of the result.

[Zpoint]

Originally Posted by ben240z

It would not be surprising to find that they were all sitting in the garden watching the gerrainiums grow unaware of the real interest there is in their stories

Absolutely true.

[z-spec]

was sold to a Dutch collector in 1973
This man was allready in his middle age and nothing to do with race of rally's, in the contrary he made train timetables.
Completely mad of cars, if I recall it right he bought also the ex-work's Honda from Rob
With the car, straight as from the RAC,he bought also a huge amount of parts,even complete engine's, diff's, gearboxe's etc.

After about a year he called Rob that he needed a new nose and some wheels because a relative of him drove the car on snow into the rails.
He got a G-nose ( in Japan cold a Blunt nose)
And from that moment on the cars whereabout was for nearly 35 years a mystery

Till Z-spec owner of a Tuning company in the south of holland heard some spooky story's about the car.
When he finaly found the car he bought it from the 93 years old owner.
The car was painted in a kind of dark red, heavy underbody coating, even fitted with a towing hook aqnd the original rally seat's where missing

He needed a motor saw to free the car out of the undergrowth, and found the extra engine, gearboxe's etc in a nearby old iron container

Z-spec is determinated to make it the best only surviving real ex-works rally 240z in Europe[/QUOTE]

phhok , verry interesting story , i knew , there must people from that era around , who have seen these cars driving in period , and as i hear your story you know a lot of the works Datsuns of that era , its looks to me you been involved in some ways , Many thanks for your information this is verry worthfull for me and now i really know withs car i own .
With a lot of help from pzr , we where 100% sure my car was one off the 1971 Monte Carlo cars , and nearly sure my car was the TKS33-SA987 , but this was still guesing , after reading your story am really sure i am the owner of the TKS33-SA985 now with Dutch registation 67-54-RU , withs became 5e in the 1971 MonteCarloRally in the hands of Raano Aaltonen , I already have contact with Raano , and he was really delighting about this .
It is unbelieveble this car been sold in Jan 1973 and I bought it 34 years later from the same person who kept it al the time .
The car is gone be restored to 1971 Monte Carlo specs in the next 2 years and be on the road again . www.va-motorsport.com

[Zpoint]

Here the 987 resting in the sun, 'a naked works’. I presume behind the Janssen garage.

[phhok]

Originally Posted by Zpoint

Here the 987 resting in the sun, 'a naked works’. I presume behind the Janssen garage.

zpoint nice work,but still strange.
The pic is not taken behind Rob's workshop, from what I can see is it a LHD,strange colour, no original work's roll bar and very strange, still with a
Rob Janssen Tuning sticker on the car

[phhok]

[phhok]

zpoint the sticker is very small but I think the same

[PZR]

Originally Posted by phhok

987 RHD used by Rob in some rallycross and later sold to Old Woking Datsun dealer in England for Tony Fall te use in the Tap rally

phhok,
With all due respect to your knowledge, I believe you might be mistaken about the original configuration of '987'. For sure the car originally issued with the temporary Japanese carnet / 'foreign use' registration number 'TKS 33 SA 987' was LHD, not RHD.

That first batch of four LHD works 240Zs purpose-built in Japan for the 1971 Monte Carlo Rallye ( and following the four RHD works 240Zs built for the 1970 RAC Rally ) were built in August and September of 1970. They were given the Japanese carnet plates 'TKS 33 SA 985', '986, '987' and '988'.

'985' and '986' were used by Aaltonen and Fall respectively in the Monte itself, while they used '987' and '988' as 'recce' cars before the event, and these two cars were - I believe - used as high-speed tenders / chase cars by service crew / team members ( including team manager Takashi Wakabayashi ) on the event itself. '987' was - definitely - originally LHD.

Tony Fall used '987' on the 1971 TAP Rallye ( serviced by Old Woking Service Station ) but I don't believe he ever actually owned it ( why would he, when he was allowed to 'borrow' it from the Works team? ) and - as far as I am aware, and this includes asking Tony himself - he never actually owned any of the Works 240Zs that he drove in period. Old Woking Service Station themselves - despite being the main UK base for the Works rally team during that early period - never owned it either. They did own a car later ( they paid the taxes and duties for it ) but that was a different ( later ) car, and in fact it still exists - owned by Gary, the son of OWSS's owner Ron Hicks.

After its temporary Japanese 'carnet' foreign-use registration number ran out, '987' would have either been sent back to Japan or re-registered with a local registration number ( and taxes / duties paid ) if it was staying outside Japan. The Nissan works team ( or the people that worked with them ) did not move these Japanese number plates around onto different cars with the freedom or slightly lax attitudes displayed by the other teams of the period, but it did happen very occasionally. Sometimes temporarily. If you remember that '987' number on a Right Hand Drive car in period, then it might have been put on there temporarily - but it certainly wasn't originally issued to an RHD car.

Please see below a ( famous ) 'yumping' pic of Tony Fall in '987' on the 1971 TAP rallye for reference. Clearly ( look at windscreen wiper orientation ) this car is LHD:

[PZR]

Can I also take this opportunity to urge caution? I think we need to be very careful in investigating the true identity and origin of Ben's ex-Janspeed car. I believe it's clearly a little bit more complicated than simply identifying it as the car that originally wore the carnet plate 'TKS 33 SA 988'........

The original works car that wore 'TKS 33 SA 988' was really quite a special - and rare - piece of equipment. Its bodyshell - whilst looking very similar to normal production 240Zs - was actually made up from the special PS30-SB 'PZR' pressings. If Ben's car was still using this original bodyshell we would easily be able to tell. Having looked at Ben's car a few years ago, I can say that it looks nothing like a 'PZR' type 'shell.

Additionally, the original '988' would have come out of the Nissan factory in August / September of 1970 - and was of the early pre-airflow type ( no vents in the rear quarters, and the rear floor area having the punched-hole type box sections ) whereas the bodyshell we see today on Ben's car is the later late-1971 onwards airflow type ( integral vents in the rear quarters, tool boxes with lids in the rear floor area - along with many other differences ). It seems quite clear that - despite Ben's car having been converted from LHD to RHD - the bodyshell that it now uses was obviously not an ex-Works 'shell, and was built something more than one year after the original '988'.........

There is the subjective and somewhat contentious aspect of 'continuous history' to take into account ( Ben's car might have a link back to an original ex-Works car ) but at this point I think it is fair and accurate to point out that Ben's ex-Janspeed car does not display any evidence of having been an ex-Works car, or '988'. As I've said many times to Ben, it has it's own well-documented and long race history ( which Ben is adding to admirably with his own hillclimbing activities ) so there seems little point in us adding anything to that unless we are SURE of it. At this point, I'd say that the evidence points to it either being a re-shell of the original ex-Works '988' ( ex-Janssen ) car performed in the Han Tjan / Janspeed ownership period, or being a race car built up from scratch on a production ( non Works ) LHD 240Z bodyshell. Of course, with the aspect of 'continuous history', it could be both!

Please don't think I'm being negative. I'd like nothing better than for it to turn out that Ben's car was built from an ex-Works car ( we need more of them! ) but as far as I can see the evidence we have to look at - namely the bodyshell of Ben's car as we see it today - points away from that.

[phhok]

Originally Posted by PZR

phhok,
With all due respect to your knowledge, I believe you might be mistaken about the original configuration of '987'. For sure the car originally issued with the temporary Japanese carnet / 'foreign use' registration number 'TKS 33 SA 987' was LHD, not RHD.

That first batch of four LHD works 240Zs purpose-built in Japan for the 1971 Monte Carlo Rallye ( and following the four RHD works 240Zs built for the 1970 RAC Rally ) were built in August and September of 1970. They were given the Japanese carnet plates 'TKS 33 SA 985', '986, '987' and '988'.

'985' and '986' were used by Aaltonen and Fall respectively in the Monte itself, while they used '987' and '988' as 'recce' cars before the event, and these two cars were - I believe - used as high-speed tenders / chase cars by service crew / team members ( including team manager Takashi Wakabayashi ) on the event itself. '987' was - definitely - originally LHD.

Tony Fall used '987' on the 1971 TAP Rallye ( serviced by Old Woking Service Station ) but I don't believe he ever actually owned it ( why would he, when he was allowed to 'borrow' it from the Works team? ) and - as far as I am aware, and this includes asking Tony himself - he never actually owned any of the Works 240Zs that he drove in period. Old Woking Service Station themselves - despite being the main UK base for the Works rally team during that early period - never owned it either. They did own a car later ( they paid the taxes and duties for it ) but that was a different ( later ) car, and in fact it still exists - owned by Gary, the son of OWSS's owner Ron Hicks.

After its temporary Japanese 'carnet' foreign-use registration number ran out, '987' would have either been sent back to Japan or re-registered with a local registration number ( and taxes / duties paid ) if it was staying outside Japan. The Nissan works team ( or the people that worked with them ) did not move these Japanese number plates around onto different cars with the freedom or slightly lax attitudes displayed by the other teams of the period, but it did happen very occasionally. Sometimes temporarily. If you remember that '987' number on a Right Hand Drive car in period, then it might have been put on there temporarily - but it certainly wasn't originally issued to an RHD car.

Please see below a ( famous ) 'yumping' pic of Tony Fall in '987' on the 1971 TAP rallye for reference. Clearly ( look at windscreen wiper orientation ) this car is LHD:

Dear PZR, with all due respect to you fabulous knowledge of every aspect ot the Datsun 240z you made me think that it was the beginning of altzheimer.
But on the contrary I am for 100% sure that there is a big misunderstanding on the subject of the 987.
You know that all my information is from first hand.

Till the TAP rally Rob never had spoken to Tony let alone providing the 987 to Old Woking for Tony to drive, and still I see on your picture clearly that Tony use the 987 in the TAP ?
That is completely impossible
Because Rob used that car around that time in a few rally cross events.
Rob and Tony became a sort of friends after the TAP and on that occasion Tony asked him if the 987 was still in his possession and if he agreed to do the car over to Old Woking.
Afew weeks later Rob drove Tony from Schiphol Airport to Z'voort and they went out for dinner, Rob offered him to stay at his home because it was already late at night, but Tony insisted to go and take the 987 with him, and the original carnet for customs in the harbour,to the early morning boot to England.
Now the mystery realy start because I am in possession of a 8 mm film that clearly shows Rob in the right hand driver seat and after the race there war a TV interview at the right side of the car.
To make everything more complicated this morning ZPOINT came with a photo of a derelict 987 with LHD and very strange ( I believe) a sticker of ROB Janssen Tuning on the right fender.
Now I think I must disagree with all respect to you tat they all where not so straight with the licence plate's of the cars.

[haman132]

Originally Posted by phhok

They made a turbo engine and replaced the steering to the right side this will give on a right hand track like Z'voort ca 1 to 1,5 sec faster lap times.
After wind tunnel test's they placed a very large wing at the rear, so far I know was the turbo engine no succes and was the car not much faster as the non extra things version.
Now the car is still RHD but with a sound non blown 3 ltr engine and very fast in the hands of Ben240z

but how can this car be right hand drive, it's before the turbo project
is this Ben's car ? wich car is this ?