Swerving/Blocking

[DMC]

I've always been of the understanding that a racing driver in any category can move to one side of the track in order to prevent a passing manouvre as long as he leaves enough room for the car behind to still pass. I am only talking about in a straight line as there will always be arguements about blocking and collisions while turning into corners and who is in the right and wrong but surely for two drivers on a straight it should be more clear as to what can and can't be done. Even with the new rules regarding "dangerous" driving the FIA has left this largely to interpretation. The rules should be one change of direction and not all the way to the edge of the track, only far enough to make it difficult to pass but not dangerously impossible.

In all the F1 videos I have seen from the 1980's and the classic duels between Senna, Prost, Mansell and Piquet, widely regarded as a "golden era" of F1 which everyone reminisces about, the drivers almost always block to the point of making it difficult for the driver behind to pass but not impossible. The same goes for all levels club racing I have been to here in Australia, why should the rules be any different for F1 today?

[Peter Mallett]

I agree with you. The real problem lies with the "safety at all costs" brigade. If it looks dangerous you can bet somebody wants to make it safer.

There is another side though and that is one of sportsmanship. Your quoted examples generally had a healthy respect for each other and gave as good as they got without twining and whingeing.

These days we have drivers who don't hold that regard and as such it appears that some are more erratic than others.

We've also witnessed the blatant use of the car to beat an opponent. Senna invented this but only did it once. There is a case to say that a certain current driver has used it at least twice.

[DMC]

I arrived at this forum well after the infamous debates I've heard so much about, on who was at fault on the fateful day at Jerex in 1997 so I won't add my opinion on that but I do agree with you that todays drivers are so used to getting their own way that they believe their own hype and stereotypes. Schumacher is "the cold, heartless reigning champion who will do anything to win", Montoya is the "careless, fast yet inconsistent rookie" and Ralf used to be the "accident prone younger brother". All sounds a bit like like the script for Driven to me. I think all the drivers really need to get over themselves and get on with RACING not driving.

[Dr. Austin]

Prost and Senna took the code of motoracing ethic and shredded it to pieces. They should be remembered as the two who put F-1's honor in the toilet, not the great heros of the golden era. The golden era was when they raced wheel to wheel like men instead of being too cowardly to let someone get alongside.

Nowhere in the FIA rules does it say that one move is allowed. In fact, they pretty much make even that illegal with the wording "moves liable to hinder other drivers" or
"any obstructive manuver" being illegal. It also says that it is illegal to swing from one side of the track to the other in order to prevent other competitors from overtaking.

Here is the link to the FIA rules. I challenge anyone to come up with a passage that states one blocking manuver or swerve is legal. "Obstructive manuvers" are specifically illegal as are the other dirty tricks.

http://www.fia.com/homepage/selection-a.html


But it is even easier thatn that. Here are the rules themselves;----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



However, manoeuvres liable to hinder other drivers such as

premature changes of direction, more than one change of

direction, deliberate crowding of cars towards the inside or the

outside of the curve or any other abnormal change of direction,

are strictly prohibited and shall be penalised, according to the

importance and repetition of the offences, by penalties ranging

from a fine to the exclusion from the race. The repetition of

dangerous driving, even involuntary, may result in the exclusion

from the race.

d) any obstructive manoeuvre carried out by one or several

drivers, either having common interests or not, is prohibited. The

persistent driving abreast of several vehicles, as well as fan-shaped

arrangement, is authorised only if there is not another car

trying to overtake. Otherwise the blue flag will be waved.

e) the penalty inflicted for ignoring the blue flag will also be

applied to the drivers who obstruct part of the track and shall be

more severe in the case of systematic obstruction, thus ranging

from a fine to the exclusion from the race. The same

penalty shall be applied to drivers who f) the repetition of serious mistakes or the appearance of a lack of

control over the car (such as leaving the track) may entail the

exclusion of the drivers concerned.

g) the race track alone shall be used by the drivers during the

race.

[Mr V]

rubens got the blame for australia as he changed his line more than once, so tgf has to be blamed for brazil, jpm went left, tgf went left to cover the inside, fair enough, but jpm went right and tgf came back across him, that changing the line more than once in my book!

[Peter Mallett]

Personally, you can shove the rules as they are written because plainly they are unworkable. Otherwise we'd have just about every driver banned by the third race.

Whether you think TGF or JPM were at fault is also irrelevant. What is relevant is the fact that these drivers don't respect each other. They spend so much time telling the world how good they are they forget that they've got to race each other, consequently when it goes wrong they get all p#%$£d off and start whingeing about swerves etc.

[Dr. Austin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Peter Mallett

"Personally, you can shove the rules as they are written"

oh baby!




"because plainly they are unworkable."

So would you rather just have chaos? Look how stupid and irresponsible they are already. If you want to say the rules don't mean anything, take out the gravel traps and install ramps aimed at the grandstands. At least the TV ratings would be good. This is real reality tv, baby!

I would change one or two of the rules, strictly to avoid misinterpertation, but they are a good place to start. The problem isn't the rules being unworkable, it is the FIA being too lame to enforce them.



"Otherwise we'd have just about every driver banned by the third race."

So, everybody is doing it and we need to change the rules to allow it? Put the ramp over there, and make sure we have a camera on the that grandstand at all times.



"What is relevant is the fact that these drivers don't respect each other."

Which is the difference between them and the great champions. These new guys don't have any respect for the sport, either. Otherwise they would stop acting like thugs. If the supposed "scrubs" of the IRL can go wheel to wheel at 220+mph and put on thriling races, what is wrong with the supposed elite that they can't get through the first corner without mugging each other? Maybe these guys aren't what we thought if they have to resort to such cheap tricks instead of skill and daring.




"consequently when it goes wrong they get all p#%$£d off and start whingeing about swerves etc."

And they should whine even louder and make an unbearable stink. Swerving is stupidly dangerous and illegal.

[Peter Mallett]

I'd rather have racing. Can't you see that all you do is quote the rules. Your opinion only seems to be that rules is rules and that's important. Well as this thread is not about the rules it's about whether you think driving standard are acceptable then the rules thing is irrelevant. Also anarchy is not to be recommended but if the rules don't work then change them. Seems to me that lawyers have got hold of them and made them so ambiguous (yes you can quote them as much as you like but interpretation is different) as to make them unusable for any sensible conversation.

[Dr. Austin]

[QUOTE][i]Originally posted by Peter Mallett

"I'd rather have racing."

Chopping, blocking and swerving is not racing.



"Well as this thread is not about the rules it's about whether you think driving standard are acceptable then the rules thing is irrelevant."

The current standard of driving ethic is utterly unacceptable. The great champions are disgusted with the current goings on.

And the rules are irrelevant? Isn't that what you just said?
I think it is unacceptable to break the rules. That's what I think about what is and isn't acceptable.

If i took you out of context, please explain yourself.




"Also anarchy is not to be recommended but if the rules don't work then change them."

For the most part, the rules seem fine. The problem is that the FIA is too lame to enforce them.

There is also a code of honor among men when you take each other's lives in your hands, but who needs that when a cheap swerve will work just as well? I suppose a code of honor means nothing to men who have none.






"Seems to me that lawyers have got hold of them and made them so ambiguous (yes you can quote them as much as you like but interpretation is different) as to make them unusable for any sensible conversation.'


The rules are clearly enough written so there can be little doubt as to what is and isn't legal. the problem is people twisting it and trying to make their own interpertations.





Swerving is blatantly illegal. How is this rule ambiguous?


"The same penalty shall be applied to drivers who swing from one side of the track to the other in order to prevent other competitors from overtaking."

Is there any room to mistake what that means? People can play all the word games they want, but at the end, all the irresponsible and dangerous behavior is going to kill someone.

Watch. Wait. It's coming. Deny it all you want. Sticking your head in the sand won't stop it. Getting a handle on the stupid and irresponsible behavior will.

[Peter Mallett]

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Dr. Austin

[i]Originally posted by Peter Mallett

Swerving is blatantly illegal. How is this rule ambiguous?


"The same penalty shall be applied to drivers who swing from one side of the track to the other in order to prevent other competitors from overtaking."

Is there any room to mistake what that means? People can play all the word games they want, but at the end, all the irresponsible and dangerous behavior is going to kill someone.

Watch. Wait. It's coming. Deny it all you want. Sticking your head in the sand won't stop it. Getting a handle on the stupid and irresponsible behavior will.

Three things.

One - You need to define how far across the track you are talking about. If it's one side to the other then I haven't seen that outside of the "startline chops". And they are not deemed illegal otherwise JPM would have been penalised yesterday.

Two. - There used to be a guy who walked up and down Oxford Street in London with a sandwich board stating "The end of the world is nigh". He retired recently and his prediction still hasn't happened.

Three. Define "swerve". In my book it's an uncontrolled change of direction.

Think about it.

[strad]

No Dr. but I would like sensible rules written in a manner that leaves no doubt as to their meaning or intent.
And I would like them to be enforced evenly.

[Dr. Austin]

Originally posted by strad
No Dr. but I would like sensible rules written in a manner that leaves no doubt as to their meaning or intent.
And I would like them to be enforced evenly.

I think the current rules are prety clear, but if a new set and even handed enforcement will fix the problem, then that is fine. We aren't going to get either, so we are have to going to have to wait for someone to die before the sewrving gets any attention.