Blocking

[McKay]

At what point does moving across the track and weaving to stop an opponent overtaking become "deliberate blocking tactics"? Is it OK to keep moving your car infront of the car behind? As racers, I wondered what your opinions were on this matter.

[StephenRae]

I'm going to refrain from commenting on this thread in case I upset even more people than I have already

[Al Weyman]

No its ruddy well not OK in my opinion.

[McKay]

You see I was watching some old touring car racing, and some guy gets moved in front of and crashes, and then says it was unfair blocking tactics, when the other guy was only moving across. I was trying to clear up whether this was fair or unfair. In F1 you can only move across the track once or something like that...

[JohnD]

Mac,
The F1 rule is one move only across the line, no weaving.
I think that's fair. A car that you can only keep behind you by weaving is faster than you are, and the manoever will probably end in tears as one or the other makes a wrong move, taking both off, probably with damage.

Please read your Blue Book, paras E 15.4 esp. 15.4.2

Are you the victim, or has someone complained about your driving? In the first, talk to the CoC - no need to make a protest that costs. The CoC will have had reports from marshals and observers trackside, and can take action against bad or dangerous driving. In the second, if the CoC has not summoned you, talk to your race secretary, or driver's rep for your class in your championship. They will have had reports too! From your victims! And they will tell you what the consensus is in your series about this sort of thing.

DON'T watch or copy the behaviour in BTCC. They have a special regulation in the Blue Book, that allows the to set thier own rules and penalties for infringments to discipline. See O 2.1.2 . For me, this is an affront to Motorsport that brings us all into disrepute as BTCC, after F1, has the widest media coverage. I don't know why the MSA puts up with it - commercial pressure I suppose.

Rant over, good luck!

John

[Al Weyman]

Also 99% of us pick up the tab and probably another 75% actually do the graft to repair the damage caused by inconciderate driving tactics, the glory boys don't.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by StephenRae

I'm going to refrain from commenting on this thread in case I upset even more people than I have already

.....and I'm going to refrain from commenting on your refusal to comment!

In fact, in the spirit of Easter, I shall deny that I know you!

[McKay]

You misunderstood, I haven't been blocking anyone, it was other people. I'm a good driver.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by McKay

I'm a good driver.

Hmmm, as my old granny used to say, self-praise is no recommendation. Which championship do you race in?

[Al Weyman]

If you hold the racing line you are doing OK if you know you can't possibly win because some monster is breathing down your neck you can be polite move over and let him go but that can sometimes lead to a misunderstanding so I say just hold the racing line and all know where they are.

[ACE Motorsport]

Keep to the racing line.
If you feel you have to try and stop someone from getting past you on the track, try and stick to the F1 rule on weaving.

[carsten.meurer]

ok, i have to admitt i was brought up in an enviroment where even some
moves that are considered as attempted murder today were common,
and there were some even more worrying ones around too...

i was karting with a certain ms, and he had more moves that you can shake a stick at ! even when he got to f1 i could still predict what he was trying, and wonder that guys like hill and hakkinen fell for it.

to me real racing allows all you want to do, as long as you do not damage someone elses car ( unless he invited you to do so ! ), and do not put theire
health at risk more than you need to ( you already do when getting in the car in first place ! ).

first of all there is NO blocking !
your car is only a certain width, and surely the track is wider !
so you are welcome to move wherever you want to move to keep me behind !
its my fault if i do not find a way past !
yes, thats harsh, but doing so, you need to accept that i will pull every trick to get past, and if its half on the grass, or round the outside, its ok by me.

and if this game gets on too long, you need to agree that i give you a little tab on the back, so i can get past !
and do not get me wrong: it can be done so you just miss the turn in, and do not wreck your car. i like racing being a bit of a contact sport !

but then there is the point that you might be faster, and doing the above game will slow us both down, and likely cause bigger troubble.
so sometimes its surely more clever to surrender a bit early, and don't fight
to the bone.

then there is the scenario where you are only MUCH faster on a single point of the track, but we are identical over the whole lap.
in that case i will try everything within reason to keep you behind !

same surely goes for any last lap...
i always considered them gloves off !

in all this situations i will asure that you are given enough room to survive !
but JUST enough... no presents made !

and before you ask, no, i do not think you will find many people who will complain about my driving ! you pretty quickly will find if someone wants it the same way or not. a hard fight is always welcome for me, but i force no one into it !
racing has lost a lot of its challlenges, and if we loose proper fights because
we are restricted in the moves and lines we can use, it will get ever poorer !

finally:
i too find racing in classes like dtm and btcc appaling ! banger racing at its best ! circuit borders mean nothing any more, and overtaking isn't even attempted, they just drive the car in front off thr road !
thats not racing !
racing needs finesse !

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by carsten.meurer

and if this game gets on too long, you need to agree that i give you a little tab on the back, so i can get past !
and do not get me wrong: it can be done so you just miss the turn in, and do not wreck your car. i like racing being a bit of a contact sport !

finally:
i too find racing in classes like dtm and btcc appaling ! banger racing at its best ! circuit borders mean nothing any more, and overtaking isn't even attempted, they just drive the car in front off thr road !
thats not racing !
racing needs finesse !

Anybody else think that those two statements contradict each other?

[Adam43]

I assume that I have misunderstood that post.

[carsten.meurer]

maybe i should make it more clear dave

i hate people not even trying to overtake you, but driving you straight off track !
thats stupid and takes no skill at all !


if i felt the need to make life hard for someone following me, and maybe
slow him down too much in his opinion, i can accept to get a genmtla nudge that makes me just miss turn in, without leaving visible marks on either car.
we did it in clios, and it worked !

so i think having contact does not mean a visit to the body shop...

edit:
maybe it gets not clear enough:
i do NOT think racing needs to be a contact sport, it can be close and existing with and inch left in between, but i am against being told how many times i am allowed to change line on a straight, or on which line to take a corner !
i payed the entry fee, so ai am allowed to use whatever part of the track i want to whenever i want to !

again, all obeyeing not to harm anyone else on track with me !

i would not want racing to become a procession of cars, on occaison one being waved past the other.

[JohnD]

Carsten,
Quoting you, "If this game gets on too long, you need to agree that i give you a little tab on the back, so i can get past !"

If you ever do that to me, it's a protest to the CoC and a complaint to the MSA. I don't care how much it costs, 'tabbing' or tagging is dangerous. It is also unfair, unbalancing a car when the driver cannot anticipate the change.

And as Dave Brand says, you try to have it both ways. How do you reconcile your statement that I quote above, and what you say about BTCC? "they just drive the car in front off thr road! How is that different from 'tabbing' them?

Added after reading your second post.
Hmmmmm. Trying to backtrack, aren't you? Sorry, Carsten, that behaviour is unacceptable to me, whatever is tolerated in Clio racing.
John

[carsten.meurer]

driving behaviour was the reason i went back to single seaters, after trying to go touring cars !

i was fed up with paying more for body repairs than anything else...

after all in single seaters you need to be gentle enough with everthing you do, or you will loose a corner, and the race.

i many TC classes, and most one makes, the driving standarts are very poor.
and i do not rate a driver by the laptimes he can do in a car, its racecraft that i rate.
overtaking is most important, and today very few people in club racing have good overtaking ethics. as long as they have a bumper they will use it.
the pros show it on tv, so it need to be the way... :-(

i get your message, but be sure that racing against me you wouldn't have reason to complain !
it would need a lot from your end to make me use the final tool.
if you are willing to give that much, you are surely happy to take a bit as well.
also it would not make you wreck your car, but just miss the turn in slightly.
and it would not be a way to overtake you after just turning laps in identical speed.

i tried to express that i feel that racing can be on different levels of hardness.
and surely on some level touching might happen. even if very rarely.

just try to get across that too often i feel that even hard and fair racing without driving someone off the raod is considered unfair and dangerous.

maybe i should have said that i accept a nudge from behind in good manner if i 'block' or race too hard.

i have adopted the attitude that its all my responsibility:
you taking me off is my fault, as i should have been clever enough to prevent it ! still i might take the chance to tell you my opinion about your driving afterwards...

[Eddy V]

Maybe Cartsen's statement would become clearer to a lot of people if they knew that racing in Germany is in general "banger" related, unlike the UK. Not that it doesn't happen here.

I know what I do when people hit each other on my post, be it on purpose or not.
Don't you love being an observer or Coc who used to be / is a race driver and knows all the tricks. Poacher/gamekeeper.
I win!

[Al Weyman]

I think Carsten's post looses something in translation if not he has completely lost me, sorry.

[carsten.meurer]

Originally Posted by Al Weyman

I think Carsten's post looses something in translation if not he has completely lost me, sorry.

might be the case al ! sorry for that !

basic is:

do not forbid free choice of line, or moving at any time !

if you choose to move around to block, be prepared that you get paied back.

racing is at its best when its close. very close.
if you want a policed minimum distance in fixed lanes get on a motorway.


i am just a bit emotional on the way that racing has gone in the past decade,
so i sadly get carried away... apologies for that !

[Al Weyman]

I do sort of see where you are coming from (I think).

[Dutton]

I think the message is something along these lines:

Different drivers will drive differently against each other: that is, different combinations will have different standards of what is acceptable. Therefore, with the exception of blatantly driving someone straight into a barrier, it should be left to the drivers to do as they wish. In the event of driver-x battling with driver-y in a way that driver-y finds not right, then driver-x can have no complaints if they get something in return. This notion of give-and-take is also applicable to situations where borderline tactics are accepted by both parties as fair play, and thus such actions should be expected.

These issues of acceptability should not be imposed by officials, but left to the drivers: the obvious exception being when something hurrendously dangerous is done.

Recent years have seen too big a shift to overly "sanitised" racing, which has been the result of too much imposition-from-above. This is a worrying trend that I want to see stopped.

I think that is the idea.

[carsten.meurer]

Originally Posted by Dutton

I think that is the idea.

spot on !

thanks a bunch...

[Dutton]

You're welcome, .

[JohnD]

Carsten,
If I did not understand something that you wrote in my language, when I could not write in yours, I'm very sorry. I'm a bit sensitive, because :
A/ last year, my series had a disasterous meeting when half the field crashed out or collided, and we were labelled 'banger racers', when the opposite is true.
B/ My season-opener track day was marked by collision, with a faster car, that I knew was there, that I moved over to the right for (this was a track day - overtaking on the left) on the EXIT to a corner - to collide with him as he tried to pass me on the right. He didn't even come to discuss the incident afterwards either, which did not surprise me as he gave me the two fingers as I followed him into the next corner.
C/ I'm going racing at the Nurburgring in July - Eifel Mountain Classic. If this is the usual standard for German racing, I'm not looking forward to it!

I stand by my earlier statement - if the car behind is clearly faster, let him go. I'd also say, if you are near matched, do everything you can to stay in front, but never use deliberate contact. That is dishonourable.

John