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Old 5 Dec 2019, 14:45 (Ref:3944990)   #7251
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If the ACO manage to screw this up, all I can say is listen to these lyrics:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2alBKpZVLVA
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Old 5 Dec 2019, 15:21 (Ref:3945005)   #7252
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Originally Posted by CTD View Post
I think we might be getting this wrong - privateers are not excluded, they just need some branding to go together with.
The more I think about it, the better I understand it. They need big brands to attract the casual spectator as they are the ones bringing in the money (quantity over quality, spectator-wise)
But has that worked when you had Audi, Porsche and Toyota? It seems to me more like the OEMs want an IMSA like guarantee they won't have to deal with upstarts taking their glory for less work and money. It's enough that I'm fairly turned off on the whole process. IMSA at least said screw you early, and contrary to the rules we knew P2s were going to be down a bit and wouldn't challenge every week. This was supposed to be oldish school racing of build it and come race. Now the rules have changed, without being published anywhere near the original time table, multiple times before release so any work that was started has been wasted a couple times.

Never mind the ridiculous let's slow everyone down so all classes are tripping over each other. I haven't spent the full 24 hours watching in a few years and now doubt I'll watch beyond a few minutes of the race with hypercars. It just feels like they wanted to destroy their own rules to not be DPi 2.0.
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Old 5 Dec 2019, 17:12 (Ref:3945019)   #7253
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Originally Posted by CTD View Post
I think we might be getting this wrong - privateers are not excluded, they just need some branding to go together with.
The more I think about it, the better I understand it. They need big brands to attract the casual spectator as they are the ones bringing in the money (quantity over quality, spectator-wise)
And when those brands leave (which they do in every series, ever), you're left with nobody if you haven't taken care of the privateers. We just watch this cycle with LMP1 only a couple of years ago.

Call me cynical but this all seemed fine and we were getting a ByKolles hypercar and the ACO never said anything. And then Peugeot turn up and suddenly no privateers.

Aye, ok.
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Old 5 Dec 2019, 20:36 (Ref:3945052)   #7254
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No one never said that privateers cannot run. All they need is to have a badge on the car from an automotive manufacture - something we already see plenty of today!
Rebellion and Peugeot are a great example of this. If Peugeot pulls out, the Rebellion team still stands and can continue to run the Peugeot hyper car or go back to their old ways of getting TVR, Lotus or Zenvo badging on them.
Joeat racing did not disappaer after Audi either and I would not be surprised if they would buy a hypercar sometime in the future.
Again the new “rule” is so vague that all ByKolles need to do is call it Lotus and stick a badge on it and they can run it. (Which also helps with the selling of merchandise)
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Old 5 Dec 2019, 20:47 (Ref:3945054)   #7255
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So the new rules are sticker engineering, or you can't run? Come on man. What exactly are we trying to achieve here, other than attempting to milk manufacturers? What exactly is the gain for the teams and fans?

I can't see any positives to this change, but I can see plenty of negatives.
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Old 5 Dec 2019, 21:56 (Ref:3945074)   #7256
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
So the new rules are sticker engineering, or you can't run? Come on man. What exactly are we trying to achieve here, other than attempting to milk manufacturers? What exactly is the gain for the teams and fans?

I can't see any positives to this change, but I can see plenty of negatives.
It is much easier for the casual fan to identify with a Lotus/TVR/Zenvo than a Rebellion. If it is easier to identify, then it becomes more interesting - for the casual fan.
The more casual fans, the more money goes into the WEC eco system.

Think of it in the same way if a national teams plays, then you attract more viewers than lf it is a non-national team.
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Old 5 Dec 2019, 22:38 (Ref:3945079)   #7257
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ACO clarifies FIA Hypercar ruling.

” The new phrase used is that entries will be “subject to approval by the Endurance Committee.”
This means that each entry will be looked at on a case-by-case basis should it not meet the initial criteria. ByKolles, for instance, could still be allowed to enter because, the relevant section of the regulations (still unpublished but shown to RACER by the WEC) states that “the Endurance Commission will rule in the last resort, at its entire discretion, on the admissibility of a car brand and car name to the Championship.”

https://racer.com/2019/12/05/aco-cla...percar-ruling/
+ "The spokesperson also revealed that a correction will be made to the name of the FIA World Endurance manufacturers’ champion (Hypercar) title that was named by the FIA in its bulletin yesterday. A change is to be made because the title will not necessarily be awarded to a manufacturer, since customer cars are eligible to compete; it will therefore be a teams’ title."
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Old 6 Dec 2019, 07:38 (Ref:3945126)   #7258
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Originally Posted by CTD View Post
It is much easier for the casual fan to identify with a Lotus/TVR/Zenvo than a Rebellion. If it is easier to identify, then it becomes more interesting - for the casual fan.
The more casual fans, the more money goes into the WEC eco system.

Think of it in the same way if a national teams plays, then you attract more viewers than lf it is a non-national team.
So because they can't be identified with, they can't run? I agree a brand name is better - I 100% disagree that this is a good way of achieving it. The only possible outcome of this is less cars on the grid.

It's a ridiculous rule that's written by someone who looked at the failure of the LMP1 Hybrid class and thought "More of these issues please"
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Old 6 Dec 2019, 07:50 (Ref:3945128)   #7259
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So because they can't be identified with, they can't run? I agree a brand name is better - I 100% disagree that this is a good way of achieving it. The only possible outcome of this is less cars on the grid.

It's a ridiculous rule that's written by someone who looked at the failure of the LMP1 Hybrid class and thought "More of these issues please"
With the precession that FIA/ACO made, the lack of a badge/brand does not equal to a refusal of entry, it just means that it is up to a council to judge it - and let us face it, no council would reject a another top tier entry.

Besides getting a brand/badge on a car seems quite easy already today, unless you are gunning for a full partnership. However the new rules does not state of which dept the branding needs to be - it seems that a single sticker and a name on the entry is all it takes. Even here in Denmark (who have never really produced any credible car to date) we have two automotive manufactures who would jump on this chance!
I honestly do not see a niche manufacture saying no to getting there brand on a Le Mans entry and therefore no issues for a privateer build hypercar not being able to run.
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Old 6 Dec 2019, 16:13 (Ref:3945234)   #7260
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A summary of where things stand.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/1...-answered.html
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Old 6 Dec 2019, 19:40 (Ref:3945267)   #7261
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Good summary of what has been talked about by the potential parties involved.

In the LMP2 reduction of power realm, doesn't that just put the p2 cars in a similar position to where they are in IMSA? I seem to remember a power reduction for this past season.
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Old 6 Dec 2019, 20:32 (Ref:3945279)   #7262
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Not sure what IMSA did (though they did restore DPIs back to their early 2017 performance specs), but the ACO are asking for a 40bhp power reduction for LMP2s. Which IMO might not slow them down that much itself. I'm thinking that the spec tire will do more to slow them down.
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Old 6 Dec 2019, 23:21 (Ref:3945291)   #7263
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The tires won't be the problem imo. I don't think they will purposely make a crappy tire or one that's extremely hard because gentleman drivers are in the class and they are the backbone of p2 entries. Making a tire that purposely has bad performance would be a hindrance to those guys and imo, would jeopardize them entering or staying in the wec. They better be careful.
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Old 7 Dec 2019, 04:57 (Ref:3945317)   #7264
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Didn't stop Grand Am from getting fields full of pro-am line ups with the junk that Hoosier/Continental and Pirelli made in the past. Then again, DPs were easier to drive on the limit I think than the LMP2s may be now, though that's because of how aero dependent LMP2s are, and they need speed to get that aero grip.
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Old 7 Dec 2019, 17:25 (Ref:3945388)   #7265
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DP was about as fast as GTE. Much slower cars and the series had been using the same tires for a while. Different scenario here because of the drivers being used to the type of tire currently on the cars. They risk a lot of blowback if they change it up. I think it'll be Goodyear for lmp2 and they're trying to improve upon the Dunlops that were ran, not go backwards.
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Old 7 Dec 2019, 18:10 (Ref:3945392)   #7266
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DP was about as fast as GTE. Much slower cars and the series had been using the same tires for a while. Different scenario here because of the drivers being used to the type of tire currently on the cars. They risk a lot of blowback if they change it up. I think it'll be Goodyear for lmp2 and they're trying to improve upon the Dunlops that were ran, not go backwards.
LMP2 is very much used to "changing it up" when it comes to tires...

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...egit-tire-war/
“Michelin is really involved with the teams, trying to push hard,” Van der Garde told Sportscar365.
“We are also trying to push Michelin quite hard ourselves. We’ve done quite a few full days of testing and I must say I was pretty happy with the performance.
“I think Dunlop also changed their tires quite a bit and I think they have also made a good step. To me, the Michelin is very close to the Dunlop.


And I don't think they will be putting even half the effort they're doing now, there's no reason to when the only ones you're trying to please is the press releases.
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Old 8 Dec 2019, 04:03 (Ref:3945503)   #7267
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LMP2 is very much used to "changing it up" when it comes to tires...

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...egit-tire-war/
“Michelin is really involved with the teams, trying to push hard,” Van der Garde told Sportscar365.
“We are also trying to push Michelin quite hard ourselves. We’ve done quite a few full days of testing and I must say I was pretty happy with the performance.
“I think Dunlop also changed their tires quite a bit and I think they have also made a good step. To me, the Michelin is very close to the Dunlop.


And I don't think they will be putting even half the effort they're doing now, there's no reason to when the only ones you're trying to please is the press releases.
I would agree but Goodyear owns Dunlop and has put in a good amount of work for their own tires to be as good as the outgoing Dunlops, and isn't that this season? I'm not worried about either of these companies getting the tender. It's not like Pirelli or Continental
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Old 8 Dec 2019, 11:43 (Ref:3945549)   #7268
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I would agree but Goodyear owns Dunlop and has put in a good amount of work for their own tires to be as good as the outgoing Dunlops, and isn't that this season? I'm not worried about either of these companies getting the tender. It's not like Pirelli or Continental
Goodyear/Dunlop still has had a reason to put out as good tires as before because Michelin is still involved in LMP2, and will be at Le Mans 2020 too. When they will be the sole factor, there is nothing stopping them just using the same compounds for years without developments, because why would you bother.

Anyway yes, nothing is as bad as Hoosier-Continental was in Grand-Am and the fusion series. What made it worse was the constant praise everyone was required to give them on TV and press releases, I doubt people have that in their contracts on this side of the pond
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Old 8 Dec 2019, 12:08 (Ref:3945555)   #7269
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If tire companies are competing in one series in a class like wec p2, spec tire classes (elms p2, imsa p2) usually just get the previous recipe. They don't get stuck with the original version of a tire for years. It's just like hand me downs, not onesies forever.
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Old 8 Dec 2019, 15:46 (Ref:3945585)   #7270
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Slowing down the P2s means we can look forward to many incidents of Am P2 drivers dive-bombing GTE cars again. Can't wait for when they decide to speed up LMP2 in a few years and want credit for fixing the problem they created.
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Old 8 Dec 2019, 17:46 (Ref:3945598)   #7271
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560bhp is still about 50-60 more hp than what the GTE cars make, and I'm betting that at LM the LMP2 trap speeds will still be fairly impressive depending on what the LMP Hypercars do.

If GTE cars can barely touch the crippled Toyotas at Shanghai on top speed, taking 40bhp away from LMP2s probably won't do too much. And the LMP2s were a bleep to pass for the Toyotas at Shanghai.

And if it does become an issue, I can see the ACO taking a few bhp away from the GTE cars. You do have to remember that this sort of started with the post 2015 rules giving them more aggressive aero and a power boost.

One issue though that I do think needs to maybe be addressed is that LMP Hypercar and LMP2 will be spec tire. There were rumors that both GTE classes might be as well, but the ACO have backpedaled on that recently. If GTE classes remain open tire, especially GTE Pro, we can see even with a power reduction laptimes remain the same though tire development. Though overall times are irrelevant as long as there's still enough top speed separation.
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Old 8 Dec 2019, 20:22 (Ref:3945620)   #7272
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Toyota still had the hybrid boost and the best drivers in the world. A power reduction and Am drivers is not a good plan.

But we all know this. It's fine, it'll get changed again when Hypercar laptimes turn into what we all want them to be now. It's a damn BoP class, so there's no reason to not make them faster. If Aston Martin are pretending that they're having to detune the car (aye, right), then just make the cars faster.
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Old 9 Dec 2019, 01:11 (Ref:3945641)   #7273
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If Toyota's 2.4 twin turbo V6 is capable of 600bhp (I think their claim of 500bhp is way conservative, when you consider that the Gibson in the Rebellion is claimed to make nearly 700bhp), and the aformentioned Gibson is a 4.5 liter V8 and makes about 700, then 700+ out of the Aston Martin 6.5 liter V12 shouldn't be a problem.

Biggest issue with Hypercar is the ACO's proposed approx 3:30 lap time around LM, and the weight bump to 1100kg. LMP2s detuned by 40bhp and at 930kg will probably still easily do significantly below 3:30 on current Michelin or Goodyear rubber.

I personally highly doubt that even with 700-800hp and 1100kg that Hypercar will be at 3:30 or lower. We won't be seeing sub 3:20s out of them, but I think that 3:30 is pretty low as to what to expect out of Hypercar. Last time that a top class car ran 3:30s in qualifying or the race at LM was 2006. You can't just undo nearly a decade in a half of what has been learned since then.

Look at GTE Pro. Those cars are much heavier than the old GT1 cars, have narrower tires, and a lot less power, and have to run steel brake rotors. But they're now as fast if not faster than the last of the top flight GT1s were. Take them down to 1100-1135kg, give them 600+bhp and carbon brakes, they'll be a ton faster, as in what GT1s could be doing now on modern tires.

Also, LMP1 Hypercars will also be 2000mm wide like the pre-2014 LMP1s. I don't know if that means that wider wheels and tires will be back, though. And we have to remember that there were concerns of LMP1s and LMP2s stacking up on each other at LM and other power tracks because of similar if not higher top speeds of LMP2s, but that never really happened.

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Old 9 Dec 2019, 15:09 (Ref:3945734)   #7274
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Keep in mind LMP2 will have spec tires so plenty of opportunity to slow them down a few more seconds with harder rubber if needed.
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Old 9 Dec 2019, 17:27 (Ref:3945766)   #7275
hondafan37
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hondafan37 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridhondafan37 should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Very good DSC interview with Vincent Beaumesnil that allows to clarify many things.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2019/1...5OwO1DGAthp180
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