Grand-Am running scared

[johntt]

http://community.grand-am.com/blogs/...b-342a1af7fb3f

So Mr Hunter, if Grand-Am is so wonderful and strong how come the ALMS is such a threat to you?

Grand-Am people are very much like IRL people, they think their faeces smells of roses.

[92scotland]

a hodge-podge rules package to further add to the confusion of participants and fans alike

To be honest, the new rules are not confusing by any means. They are very easy to understand and follow. Although I am not a fan of the new rules, it will not cost all that much to make the P2 class a bit faster for example. ALMS is doing a damn sight better than the rubbish that is Grand-AM and the ALMS has real manufacturers which attracts the fans and more manufacturers. The Grand-AM series has none of these. It may be cheaper but the new Formula Le Mans series was created to reduce running costs.

[MJ_N_09]

Well on a funnier/sadder note you could always look at the AMA Superbike series. That's one serie that I doubt will be around in 2 years.

[Jonerz]

Originally Posted by MJ_N_09

Well on a funnier/sadder note you could always look at the AMA Superbike series. That's one serie that I doubt will be around in 2 years.

Sad but true. Is NASCAR simply trying to eliminate all competition by buying it and destroying it? And if I may ask the impossible question, is that really what Big Bill France would want? He was instrumentle in the creation of IMSA, and fostering it with sponsorships like Camel.

Chris

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by johntt

http://community.grand-am.com/blogs/...b-342a1af7fb3f

So Mr Hunter, if Grand-Am is so wonderful and strong how come the ALMS is such a threat to you?

Grand-Am people are very much like IRL people, they think their faeces smells of roses.

Seems a little odd to see a corporate type write like that, nothing written in that blog is wrong, however.

The ALMS is in panic mode right now. Fernandez is gone next year, it's likely that DeFerran will be as well. That leaves the godawful dyson entries and a highcroft P1 car to battle in their "premiere" class with a couple of partial season backmarker entries to fill the field. Tossing out some GT3 cup cars to create traffic and this ill-advice "LM-C" class does seem desperate.

[the sniper]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Sad but true. Is NASCAR simply trying to eliminate all competition by buying it and destroying it?

I don't understand how NASCAR can get away with this, isn't there any kind of business competition authority in the US? It's blatantly obvious that they're trying to suppress the success of other series, look what they've done to AMA Superbike, their governance of that series can only be seen as criminal, they're killing it!

I know over here in Europe Bernie Ecclestone was forced to sell the commercial rights to the World Rally Championship so he wouldn't get too much grief from the European Commission competition department.

Bernie may have played his part in bringing down Group C, but even he didn't have the nerve to fiddle with Motorbike racing as well...

PS. The Porsche Supercup is more interesting then Grand-Am.

[gsmith2424]

Originally Posted by the sniper

I don't understand how NASCAR can get away with this, isn't there any kind of business competition authority in the US? It's blatantly obvious that they're trying to suppress the success of other series, look what they've done to AMA Superbike, their governance of that series can only be seen as criminal, they're killing it!

I know over here in Europe Bernie Ecclestone was forced to sell the commercial rights to the World Rally Championship so he wouldn't get too much grief from the European Commission competition department.

Bernie may have played his part in bringing down Group C, but even he didn't have the nerve to fiddle with Motorbike racing as well...

PS. The Porsche Supercup is more interesting then Grand-Am.

NASCAR and the France family know that they are on the line of getting in trouble with the US Governement. Even though the France's don't own both they do control both NASCAR and ISC. The France's also own part of Motorsports Authentics which is the apperal and die cast make of NASCAR. They don't own it all as it is also owned by SMI (Speedway Motorsport Owner Bruton Smith which runs Lowes, Atlanta, etc.). The Frances only went into the deal to own MA with SMI to prevent it from looking like they are trying to have too much control of everything to to with stock car racing.

Everything business wise the France's/ISC and NASCAR has done in the past few years stink and stink really bad.

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Seems a little odd to see a corporate type write like that, nothing written in that blog is wrong, however.

The ALMS is in panic mode right now. Fernandez is gone next year, it's likely that DeFerran will be as well. That leaves the godawful dyson entries and a highcroft P1 car to battle in their "premiere" class with a couple of partial season backmarker entries to fill the field. Tossing out some GT3 cup cars to create traffic and this ill-advice "LM-C" class does seem desperate.

Kool-Aid alert!!!




L.P.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Seems a little odd to see a corporate type write like that, nothing written in that blog is wrong, however.

The ALMS is in panic mode right now. Fernandez is gone next year, it's likely that DeFerran will be as well. That leaves the godawful dyson entries and a highcroft P1 car to battle in their "premiere" class with a couple of partial season backmarker entries to fill the field. Tossing out some GT3 cup cars to create traffic and this ill-advice "LM-C" class does seem desperate.

Actually I think the ALMS will do quite well as the economy improves as it is the last remaining outlet in the USA for technically interesting cars and engines that would interest both spectators and manufacturers.

Grand Am is a formula propped up by nascar and once that fades as it is already, so goes the series.

[Fogelhund]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Seems a little odd to see a corporate type write like that, nothing written in that blog is wrong, however.

The ALMS is in panic mode right now. Fernandez is gone next year, it's likely that DeFerran will be as well. That leaves the godawful dyson entries and a highcroft P1 car to battle in their "premiere" class with a couple of partial season backmarker entries to fill the field. Tossing out some GT3 cup cars to create traffic and this ill-advice "LM-C" class does seem desperate.

To be factual, the ALMS is in survival mode. In addition, even the most pessimistic people don't believe there will just be three full time Prototype entries next year, with the balance being partial season entries.

Grand Am does appear to be in Panic mode though, when a high level executive is asked to publish something of this nature. Perhaps the talk that the situation better change quick, or the subsidies go away might be fairly accurate at this point. Grand Am is in serious danger of having single digit DP's next year and losing more GT's. I think it is very distasteful that an organization would send out what amounts to PR, bashing their competition. A total lack of class.

I suppose we shall find out if this LM-C class is ill-advised or not. Perhaps it will prove to be, or it could be popular enough to be cash flow positive, with enough entries to be interesting. This isn't what I would have proposed, but there is rational behind it.

The GT3 class is interesting. Sportscar racing needs a secondary GT class, but unfortunately the other "GT3 equivalents" haven't managed to get it right yet. FIA GT3 has great variety, but spiralling costs. I don't like a single constructor class for GT, and the ALMS has made statements that they are looking at adding constructors, but it must be done in a manner that controls costs. I'm not certain what the best solution is, though the ALMS has managed to keep the GT2 competition quite close, so you have to have some confidence they could do it with GT3 as well. I think in the future a reasonable job could be done, limiting the class to Porsche, Ferrari Challenge cars, Dodge Viper Comp Coupe and Vettes.

[broadrun96]

It seemed more to me to be a plea to a couple of teams that may be considering moving to LMP-C, thinking TRG or any Porsche powered DP program. Did Porsche announce they would just be pulling the DP engine program money or are they planning on dropping any assistance to the GT cars as well? Yes, adding classes for limited budget teams may be a long-term bad idea but I think they are hoping it will bring in some new teams to learn about enduros and prototypes before moving on the LMP2 or even LMP1s in the future. I'm kind of doubtful the class will keep running with the ALMS too long but step back to a support race the day before.

[johntt]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Seems a little odd to see a corporate type write like that, nothing written in that blog is wrong, however.

The ALMS is in panic mode right now. Fernandez is gone next year, it's likely that DeFerran will be as well. That leaves the godawful dyson entries and a highcroft P1 car to battle in their "premiere" class with a couple of partial season backmarker entries to fill the field. Tossing out some GT3 cup cars to create traffic and this ill-advice "LM-C" class does seem desperate.

Drinking the Kool-Aid I see.

DeFerran are expanding their ALMS operation to two cars actually. The Dyson cars are not 'Godawful', Dyson are a long standing and well respected sportscar team, oh and theres a privateer Porsche RS Spyder

The GT3 cars in the ALMS have behaved themselves this year as they have been carefully selected by IMSA for inclusion in the Challenge class, the expansion of the Challenge class to take in other GT3 level cars (and there are a lot of them and they are nice: http://www.fiagt3.com/cars.php).

I sincerely hope that Grand-Am dies a death and events like the Daytona 24, Daytona 250 miles and the Six Hours at the Glen can be run with proper cars.

[fieldodreams79]

this whole thing is going to get uglier before it's all said and done.
haven't seen any upper echelon of a racing series get their panties all wadded up over another racing series in a few weeks, but as another said; this was uncalled for and very child like.

cry me a river, Jim. i tried to like the Koolaid, but needs more sugar or booze or sumpin.

Originally Posted by johntt

The Dyson cars are not 'Godawful', Dyson are a long standing and well respected sportscar team.....

hear, hear

Originally Posted by johntt

I sincerely hope that Grand-Am dies a death and events like the Daytona 24, Daytona 250 miles and the Six Hours at the Glen can be run with proper cars.

harsh, but the way it needs to be. i fear that if the GA does in fact fold that these races may go away for a while out of spite.

[picchiofan]

Explain the kool-aid drinking to me. Reading this board reminds me of the emperor's new clothes.

Fernandez is gone, and DeFerran would "like to run the ALMS in a perfect world". Meanwhile, Pageneud is actively looking for a ride for next year. Doesn't really take much to read between those lines.

Dyson is a joke of a team. They were crushed by Audi, they were crushed by Penske, and this year they're getting crushed by a single third-tier Acura team that's out of money. No matter what the car, they've continously had reliability issues. Be it the various lolas, the RS-Spyders that dominated in the hands of Penske outright, but with which dyson could barely manage top 5's in class, or the current "Mazola" turds. Their two year Grand Am effort in the DPs is best left to a footnote, as they could barely crack the top fifteen.

Constantly finishing second when there's only 2 cars in the race doesn't make you a good team.

The GT3 cars in the ALMS have behaved themselves this year as they have been carefully selected by IMSA for inclusion in the Challenge class, the expansion of the Challenge class to take in other GT3 level cars (and there are a lot of them and they are nice: http://www.fiagt3.com/cars.php).

Go read some of the quotes from the various GT & Prototype drivers after races like lime rock to see how well they "behaved". As for "carefully selected", you mean they showed up?

[joeb]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Dyson is a joke of a team. They were crushed by Audi, they were crushed by Penske, and this year they're getting crushed by a single third-tier Acura team that's out of money. No matter what the car, they've continously had reliability issues. Be it the various lolas, the RS-Spyders that dominated in the hands of Penske outright, but with which dyson could barely manage top 5's in class, or the current "Mazola" turds. Their two year Grand Am effort in the DPs is best left to a footnote, as they could barely crack the top fifteen.

Constantly finishing second when there's only 2 cars in the race doesn't make you a good team.

Dyson was the first team to win a race overall with a P675 car, and I believe they beat.......Audi! Dyson may have not had a load of victories this season, but they do have professional drivers and a team that can prepare cars (although the Spyders did seem to give them fits).

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Explain the kool-aid drinking to me. Reading this board reminds me of the emperor's new clothes.

Fernandez is gone, and DeFerran would "like to run the ALMS in a perfect world". Meanwhile, Pageneud is actively looking for a ride for next year. Doesn't really take much to read between those lines.

Dyson is a joke of a team. They were crushed by Audi, they were crushed by Penske, and this year they're getting crushed by a single third-tier Acura team that's out of money. No matter what the car, they've continously had reliability issues. Be it the various lolas, the RS-Spyders that dominated in the hands of Penske outright, but with which dyson could barely manage top 5's in class, or the current "Mazola" turds. Their two year Grand Am effort in the DPs is best left to a footnote, as they could barely crack the top fifteen.

Constantly finishing second when there's only 2 cars in the race doesn't make you a good team.



Go read some of the quotes from the various GT & Prototype drivers after races like lime rock to see how well they "behaved". As for "carefully selected", you mean they showed up?

Back to pass out more?






L.P.

[cmk]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Explain the kool-aid drinking to me. Reading this board reminds me of the emperor's new clothes.

Fernandez is gone, and DeFerran would "like to run the ALMS in a perfect world". Meanwhile, Pageneud is actively looking for a ride for next year. Doesn't really take much to read between those lines.

Dyson is a joke of a team. They were crushed by Audi, they were crushed by Penske, and this year they're getting crushed by a single third-tier Acura team that's out of money. No matter what the car, they've continously had reliability issues. Be it the various lolas, the RS-Spyders that dominated in the hands of Penske outright, but with which dyson could barely manage top 5's in class, or the current "Mazola" turds. Their two year Grand Am effort in the DPs is best left to a footnote, as they could barely crack the top fifteen.

Constantly finishing second when there's only 2 cars in the race doesn't make you a good team.



Go read some of the quotes from the various GT & Prototype drivers after races like lime rock to see how well they "behaved". As for "carefully selected", you mean they showed up?

Man, I don't like to label every biased GARRA shill that shows up here a kool-aid drinker; I save that for the ones who truly show evidence that they are delusional. Fogelhund's statement is balanced, as he notes accurately how both series are in trouble, to what degree, and how they present those issues to the outside world. You just spew things that stretch from fact to outright slander, with little consideration for the difference between the two.

There is irony that someone whose name touts that they are a fan of an Italian prototype boutique manufacturer who has been roundly trounced by their competition far more often than not should be making fun of Dyson Racing...pot, kettle, black. I won't be buying whatever this is you are selling; I think I would prefer a Lucchini, thank you kindly.

[cptkablamo]

This makes me want to cry, or go on murderous rampage or something similar...

This is the kind of rubbish that was spouted for 12 odd years for the Open Wheel war, now we want to bring it to the Sportscar world, because, what - are we bored or do we just like the mudslinging. Go back to living in some kind of harmony. Both have a place and neither have the entrant or fan backing to live through this.

It was poor form of Grand Am to put out a blog like that but they very well might have a point. But if they do, don't air it in public. No one cares (or at least me) enough to live through it again...

And bad mouthing the entrants of either series, that is just pathetic.

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Jonerz

Sad but true. Is NASCAR simply trying to eliminate all competition by buying it and destroying it? And if I may ask the impossible question, is that really what Big Bill France would want? He was instrumentle in the creation of IMSA, and fostering it with sponsorships like Camel.

Chris

NASCAR is a THING; you are speaking of the France family and most all attached to its kingdom.

Big Bill was a racer, and ruled with an iron fist.
He DID buy out comp. he was worried about his concerns first, second and third, but he did work WITH other sanctions comfortably.
He once ran a Grand American Sedan race (the original series) with a Trans-Am race.

The France boys now running the show inherited EVERYTHING, and did not have to work to make it work EVER.

THAt is the difference between BIG Bill and what now exists.

[Purist]

If I'm reading the stuff here, and previous bits I heard elsewhere, correctly, the DP class is losing Lexus, Pontiac, and Porsche at the end of the season. I know the ALMS has issues, but that's Ganassi, Gainsco, Brumos, and Penske all having to get new engines. At this point, the ONLY make that has a significant piece of the DP pie is Ford with those three pulling out. And unless they pick up a couple of those privately-built Porsche V8s, I'm not sure what Brumos will be doing.

If Porsche pulls their GA GT support, there goes half of that neighborhood, not to mention the Pontiacs that will be disappearing in that class as well.

[picchiofan]

Originally Posted by cmk

There is irony that someone whose name touts that they are a fan of an Italian prototype boutique manufacturer who has been roundly trounced by their competition far more often than not should be making fun of Dyson Racing...pot, kettle, black. I won't be buying whatever this is you are selling; I think I would prefer a Lucchini, thank you kindly.

The concepts of irony and sarcasm are clearly lost on someone of your, uh, how shall we say, "intellect". Judging by the other responses I've read here such as "Horndawg" and such, I'll be sure to tailor my writing style towards a room full of 10 year olds. Obviously gotta work to the audience.

If I'm reading the stuff here, and previous bits I heard elsewhere, correctly, the DP class is losing Lexus, Pontiac, and Porsche at the end of the season. I know the ALMS has issues, but that's Ganassi, Gainsco, Brumos, and Penske all having to get new engines. At this point, the ONLY make that has a significant piece of the DP pie is Ford with those three pulling out. And unless they pick up a couple of those privately-built Porsche V8s, I'm not sure what Brumos will be doing.

Porsche's "factory" support in GA only dates back to 2007. Prior to that it was privately built motors. Brumos ran them all the way back to 2003, so I don't see a huge change there. Pontiac has already been rebadged as "Chevrolet" on a few of the cars running the LS2/LS6, much as it was when the DP class began in 2003 and ran until 2004. Prior to 2006, there was practically no "factory" supporting money at all for any of the motors.

Reading the GA competitor board, if anything, you get the feeling that the HP war between GM & Toyota caused more issues and drove costs up ridiculously, so losing their "official" participation isn't necessarily as bad as it looks on paper.

The nature of the GA engine model is skewed more towards private engine builders to begin with. Losing factory support doesn't mean the engines dissapear. In addition to the LS2s, Porsche flat 6's, Lexus and Ford mod motors, you still have the Porsche V8, Dinan built BMW S62 motor, the Honda V6, the Nissan 4.5 V8, which obviously hasn't run in a few seasons, and Supercar life has a test mule running a Ferrari V8 right now. Obviously none of those engine programs have any factory backing, but the options are still there.

[broadrun96]

So possibilities in GA are somehow better than possibilities in the ALMS? If you really think Penske will stick around without other people's money funding him you have no clue about how he operates. As for some of those other teams building their own engines, other than the Dinan built BMW, none of the private engines have looked at all reliable or viable. That will just get even harder if everyone jumps on the Ford bangwagon, I'll believe the Pontiacs will all be Chevy when I see it at Daytona. NO ONE will run the flat-6 911 engine without Porsche pushing for rules breaks so it can be competitive with the V8s and there's no way Porsche will come back as long as the Cayenne V8 is allowed to run.
I'm feeling like an even bigger drop-off is in store for the GA after Daytona than the ALMS will suffer in this off-season.

As for Pageneud looking for a ride for next season, why havent I seen that posted anywhere else? Seems like something that would be big news in any forum?

[HORNDAWG]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

The concepts of irony and sarcasm are clearly lost on someone of your, uh, how shall we say, "intellect". Judging by the other responses I've read here such as "Horndawg" and such, I'll be sure to tailor my writing style towards a room full of 10 year olds. Obviously gotta work to the audience.



Porsche's "factory" support in GA only dates back to 2007. Prior to that it was privately built motors. Brumos ran them all the way back to 2003, so I don't see a huge change there. Pontiac has already been rebadged as "Chevrolet" on a few of the cars running the LS2/LS6, much as it was when the DP class began in 2003 and ran until 2004. Prior to 2006, there was practically no "factory" supporting money at all for any of the motors.

Reading the GA competitor board, if anything, you get the feeling that the HP war between GM & Toyota caused more issues and drove costs up ridiculously, so losing their "official" participation isn't necessarily as bad as it looks on paper.

The nature of the GA engine model is skewed more towards private engine builders to begin with. Losing factory support doesn't mean the engines dissapear. In addition to the LS2s, Porsche flat 6's, Lexus and Ford mod motors, you still have the Porsche V8, Dinan built BMW S62 motor, the Honda V6, the Nissan 4.5 V8, which obviously hasn't run in a few seasons, and Supercar life has a test mule running a Ferrari V8 right now. Obviously none of those engine programs have any factory backing, but the options are still there.

Had anything of merit been posted, that was worth responding to in an intelligent fashion, it would have been responded to. But all that was posted was nothing more than pot stirring, as is every single post that you have put on the board here! The anti-ALMS, GARRA centric diatribe that is being passed off as forthright discussion is, at best, a farce. So as far as I am concerned the responses were spot on! I suggest, fairer winds be found, to fly that kite. Good Day




L.P.

[MJ_N_09]

Well what do you expect? He joined just for this thread.


The point is, FOUR manufacturers are leaving GA, but luckily for the DPs, it's a spec serie, so they can just keep the chassies and just get Ford, BMW, or whoever remains there. However, it's the GT class that may be in deep......yeah. Half the field were Porsches, with Pontiac (RIP)and Mazda the other 2 big manufacturers. FWIR, the sole Ferrari that ran there was horrible.


In a nutshell, the DPs may be fine, but it's the GTs that are in trouble. Funny, as I remember back in the late Spring/early Summer that the ALMS looked like it was in trouble. My how the tide has turned.

[mz2k]

Originally Posted by picchiofan

Explain the kool-aid drinking to me. Reading this board reminds me of the emperor's new clothes.

Fernandez is gone, and DeFerran would "like to run the ALMS in a perfect world". Meanwhile, Pageneud is actively looking for a ride for next year.

Your very posts are all kook-aid induced. De Ferran's "in a perfect world" comment referred to running both IRL and ALMS. BTW- it's an IRL program he was exploring, not the ALMS.

Your post is also the first I've heard of Pags looking for a ride- care to attribute your source?