[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[chernaudi]

Well, if we go by what you're saying, then it's the old Nationalistic pride, mine's bigger than yours, p****ing match. Maybe the ACO and IMSA should just go and do their own thing.

Or better yet, maybe the OEMs should just do their own thing without ACO/IMSA or even FIA intervention. We've seen the the ACO and IMSA need factory involvement more than the factories need them. Or maybe the FIA, just like in F1, need to grow some balls, say they're the boss and this is how it's going to be for a common platform.

IMO, the ACO and IMSA acting in their own interest isn't to anyone's interest. Just like everything else in life. If IMSA wants to stiff LMH teams (at least unless they commit full time) and the ACO wants to do the same with LMDH, then that's exactly what they're doing, which IMO isn't a world platform. It's still a regional platform that's just similar enough for one to do the other's events--in theory.

Again, I think the FIA should remind the ACO and IMSA that they're ASN members and could be kicked out of the FIA. But last time something like this happened was when the SRO and FIA told the ACO to back down against IMSA over the Maserati MC12. But Todt has proven to be spineless in his and FOM's dealings with F1 teams, and the FIA doesn't give a damn about the WEC, even though their name is on the tin. They're just badging it as a World Championship for promo value, and the WEC is pretty much 99% the ACO's baby, and always has been.

Motorsport isn't a democracy.

And thank god for You Tube and IMSA at least having the decentcy to keep up the old ALMS videos and even uploading some. And I do have the freedom there to do my own thing. And if IMSA and the ACO aren't after the same things, they should stop acting like it. Otherwise, they're just acting in their own interests and not truly adopting a world platform, and trying to pull the wool over people's eyes.

[canaglia]

everything aside, lmdh will stay on the same performance window of actual dpi, basically a bit faster than 2020 lmp2. Lmh will have much more freedom about chassis/aero and ICE/hybrid development while lmdh will be however stricly limited to lmp2 aero and unable to improve engine performances/efficiency

[chernaudi]

Which basically means that Audi, Porsche and HPD/Acura are probably lobbying the ACO to BOP LMH to being equal to LMDH.

The whole irony of this IMO is that the ACO want LMH to run 3:30 or so in race pace at LM (yeah, right, that would automatically make the unrestrained LMDH or even current DPIs faster around LM than proposed speeds for LMH). LMDH would seem to be a cheap and easy way to do that.

And let's not forget the Glickenhaus factor, where Jim Gickenhaus is trying to do a LMH program with a budget not much larger than what's been proposed for LMDH.

And wasn't budget and cost reduction, and maybe peripheral customer programs, part of the reason for both rules sets anyways? Though I do stand by my previous post of both the ACO's and IMSA's goals never the less being self serving, with little regard of a genuine global platform unless they compromise and swallow some pride on both sides.

Maybe that's the motive that Audi and Porsche have, to force a compromise. You do have to remember that TMG/TGRE harped about cost for a while, at least until Toyota in Japan upped the budget after 2015...

And we do have to remember that there's a lot of time left until 2023, which means that Audi and Porsche can do LMH programs if they want or change their minds based on what they see the next year or two, and maybe try and browbeat IMSA to accept LMH, just as they may be possibly browbeating the ACO to accepting LMDH alongside LMH on equal terms as far as BOP/performance.

[krzysiek_aleks]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

The whole irony of this IMO is that the ACO want LMH to run 3:30 or so in race pace at LM

Didn't they want to do something like this few years ago and we ended up with record Le Mans lap times?

[chernaudi]

They tried engine downsizing, and we got laptimes like what current LMP2s run and even first gen hybrids ran what would probably be DPI laptimes.



IMO, only thing that would peg back the LMH/LMDH cars is the 1030kg minimum weight and no more 1000+hp combined hybrid cars.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by krzysiek_aleks

Didn't they want to do something like this few years ago and we ended up with record Le Mans lap times?

well it actually worked somehow since from 3.19 of 2010 lmp1 were slowed down to 3.25 in 2011... but ACO/FIA just can't stop aero, powertrains, tires and overall development

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

Everyone posting here needs to stop, read a very simple story and then stop with the hopes and dreams nonsense about what LMH(ypercar) and LMDh(ybrid) will be. There's NO, ZERO, NONE AT ALL chance of LMDh becoming some class beyond DPi 2.0, any idea to the contrary is either ill-informed, wishful, or intentionally contrarian. They have given teams the outline and given away most of the info publicly, there's not much more left to fill in the details.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/1...t-is-lmdh.html


The only way the LMDh cars will have ANY chance at LM is through old school out lasting the LMH guys and hoping things break or traffic. The LMH cars will probably cost more to build than LMDh will cost to run the entire season. The engines already have a known power target in both groups and LMH has had theirs cut already, making SCG's Pipo engine become a bit of expense they could have used elsewhere with the Alfa originally considered being cheaper. But they've moved on and hold only a sight grudge, understandably. The new Peugeot will push that LMH advantage even further, but that's no great news to anyone nor does it need to be debated as history has shown that. Great we all know including teams entered, outlast PSA's board and you'll have a chance.

The LMH guys are screwed in return when it comes to running in IMSA, no guarantee has been made yet they can run, IMSA is interested and will consider it. Meaning they want BOP to favor those invested in running their full season, which is fair.

So to put it short, out of 3 main goals behind this global overhaul 1 has been somewhat achieved. Costs on ACO side will somewhat go down, at the cost of BoP, but they will go up on the IMSA side. As for the other two objectives, cars won't look like sports cars after all and there is no real IMSA-ACO convergence.

What is really sad, I think this was likely the last chance while motor sport is at this professional and commercial level. The last rule cycle before things turn either towards "science experiment" in alternative propulsion methods, sort of like solar car racing and other very niche competitions that exist now, or towards pure entertainment and detachment from car brands. Every series will have to make this choice for themselves in the coming decade or so. Either way, the OEM money will likely dry out.

[GingerPixel]

So in summary everything is either:

Too fast or not fast enough.

Too expensive or not expensive enough.

Too ugly or not ugly enough.

[chernaudi]

I do think that IMSA and the ACO need to look at LMP900 and LMP1 first gen to see what worked when the big factories either weren't around or there was just one, at most, two of them.

The answer, customer cars. You had the likes of Lola (now Multimatic), Courage (now Oreca), and others offering decent customer cars to non-factory aligned teams. Hell, even Audi Sport offered R8s to semi-works customers after they left as a full factory effort to design what would become the R10. And there's even running R10s and R15s in private hands, something I never imagined when those cars raced as factory efforts. But the ACO (and now increasingly IMSA's) neglect has killed off the customer car market, and factory teams are unable or unwilling to fill that gap for the most part.

What I'm cynical about is that there still seems to be an ideological disconnect between the ACO and IMSA similar to what existed between the ACO/IMSA and Grand Am/NASCAR before the merger. Granted, from a technical standpoint the cars are more equal, but it seems that a schism still exists.

This is an area where if I ran the FIA, I'd ask IMSA and the ACO if they're truly serious about a common global platform. Either I'd come up with regs and force the ACO and IMSA to abide or pound sand, or at least make them fess up about going for their own interests instead of a true common platform.

Me, I'd aim for the middle of what LMH and LMDH are aiming for. IMO, that only makes sense. Much less in terms of expense than LMP1 currently is for factory teams, less "spec" than DPI while not being much more expensive. But that would require compromise. Which would require the ACO and IMSA/NASCAR each giving up something and swallowing a bit of pride. Sometimes, you have to take a bullet to get what you--let alone your customers, be it teams, sponsor, or fans--want. And as much as I harp on NASCAR fans for not knowing what they want or how to ask for it, the sportscar fans generally seem to know what makes sense, or at least usually make a clear, knowledgeable argument for what their views are.

I guess what I'm saying in brief is if the ACO and IMSA want a global/universal platform, make it work by giving up something to get what you want. If not, then stop pretending that's what you want and do your own thing. Either crap or get off the John for someone who really wants or needs to use it.

[Pandamasque]

I believe the "ideological" differences are at least in part rooted not within each organisation, but with the market they work with. On the IMSA side a lot of the money comes not from global manufacturers but from either North American branches of global OEMs, who have less money to spend and aren't that interested in global reach, or from US OEMs who have little to no presence outside the US and therefore again see it as a US-only promotion tool. Not to say that the likes of GM and Ford don't have global presence, but not so much with luxury or sporty cars/brands, especially until now (Mustang and Corvette sort of going global).

[chernaudi]

I don't know about Ford, since their European division is still going strong, add to that Chrysler is global (though mostly indirectly due to Fiat and Peugeot ownership stakes),

However, GM is def. contracting, given that they've put Holden on the back burner and ceased production in Australia. Also, Opel and Vauxhall were sold to Peugeot/PSA. And we do have to remember that the last time that Cadillac ventured outside of NA, it didn't work out too great, be it selling cars or racing.

But then again, what you brought up did kinda kill Audi full time in the ALMS, as Audi and Audi Sport wanted Audi of America to foot a bigger part of the bill for running in the ALMS vs LM and/or a World Championship. Ironically, the guy who ran AoA back then I believe is running Cadillac right now.

I do believe, though, there has to be some give and take, be it if IMSA and or the ACO voluntarily do so, or it's forced upon them by the OEMs. Who, after all, both are spending plenty of time pandering to (as always whilst neglecting potential privateer efforts).

[hondafan37]

According to it.Motorsport.com, Antonello Coletta's current GT area will be responsible for Ferrari's return to the top class of endurance racing to aim for overall victory at the 24 Hours of Le Mans. So we can assume that AF Corse would abandon GTE to go to Hypercar.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1...-indy/4921450/

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

According to it.Motorsport.com, Antonello Coletta's current GT area will be responsible for Ferrari's return to the top class of endurance racing to aim for overall victory at the 24 Hours of Le Mans. So we can assume that AF Corse would abandon GTE to go to Hypercar.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1...-indy/4921450/

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

According to it.Motorsport.com, Antonello Coletta's current GT area will be responsible for Ferrari's return to the top class of endurance racing to aim for overall victory at the 24 Hours of Le Mans. So we can assume that AF Corse would abandon GTE to go to Hypercar.

https://it.motorsport.com/f1/news/f1...-indy/4921450/

If AF Corse abandons GTE, does it mean they take all of their 569 thousand customer "teams" with them? Those are probably a considerable part of their income.
Also if that's the case, the scenario where Ferrari leaves top-tier GT racing to Maserati's MC20 is starting to take shape.

[Tique]

In a french news paper today (Ouest-France, they are generally well informed on subject regartding Le Mans).


https://www.ouest-france.fr/sport/24...n-plus-7077619



Porsche is getting closer and closer. The journalist is stating that Porsche should come back in LMDh for 2022

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Tique

Porsche is getting closer and closer. The journalist is stating that Porsche should come back in LMDh for 2022

But... the LMDh class doesn't debut until 2023.

[krzysiek_aleks]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

But... the LMDh class doesn't debut until 2023.

I think no one confirmed, that LMDh debiut will be pushed to 2023. There were strong rumours, but nothing set in stone.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

But... the LMDh class doesn't debut until 2023.

I understand that the LMDH delay until 2023 is only for IMSA.

[Tique]

I recall that IMSA hasn't delayed the LMDh as it is beleived taht no one will be ready for 2022.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I understand that the LMDH delay until 2023 is only for IMSA.

Originally Posted by Tique

I recall that IMSA hasn't delayed the LMDh as it is beleived taht no one will be ready for 2022.

That was my understanding as well. I recall a quote from imsa management saying they were leave it up to the manufacturers to decide when the debut will be.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I understand that the LMDH delay until 2023 is only for IMSA.

Well it doesn't really matter where because, I think it was Doonan who said, the hybrid systems mandated for the class won't become available until some time in 2022.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Well it doesn't really matter where because, I think it was Doonan who said, the hybrid systems mandated for the class won't become available until some time in 2022.

Could be, but with the right motivation a unit or two could be available sooner. But a January 2022 debut would be ok for a program to get started and that counts as sometime in 2022.

[chernaudi]

DSC and SC365 have articles up where Audi Sport confirm their LMDH plans for Le Mans/WEC/IMSA with both factory and customer teams.

With Audi and Porsche committing to LMDH, could this force the ACO and IMSA to the table to make LMH and LMDH compatible in performance?

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by joeb

Could be, but with the right motivation a unit or two could be available sooner. But a January 2022 debut would be ok for a program to get started and that counts as sometime in 2022.

He cited "sometime in 2022" as a reason why the class won't start until 2023, so I'm guessing it's more like September rather than January.


==== moving the dimension discussion from the "rose-tinted glasses only" thread ====

Originally Posted by TF110

The McLaren f1 GTR longtail was 4.9+ meters in length.

No fair! I really doubt we'll see any longtails. Weird 4-metre wheelbases more likely. What do the LMH rules say about the rear overhang?

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And a technical point. The long wheelbases on current LMP cars (and basically those designed since 2005/06) is largely due to aero regs.

Let's just take the Audi R10, which had the longest wheelbase for a LMP1 car (claimed by Audi to be similar to the first generation Audi Q7 SUV) until Audi Sport designed the R15 (which at the time had a wheelbase as long as or even longer than F1 cars of the period). Yes, the diesel V12 was much longer than the V8 out of the R8, but it was far from the only factor. A longer wheelbase makes a car more stable in direction changes and down straightaways, it makes it easier to package the tub and mechanicals within the wheelbase as well, which helps with weight distribution.

But the long wheelbase (which I believe is also the case for F1 cars) is also very largely governed by overall length requirements vs front/rear overhang. We have to remember that post 2004 LMP1s were limited to 1000mm front overhang and especially 750mm rear overhang. However, length (4650mm) and until 2014 width (2000mm) remained the same. So hence, wheelbases got longer to counter the overhang chops while keeping the cars overall as long as possible.

just to illustrate the above points

[canaglia]

2 different kind of "lenght" concept...
f1 have come to be almost 6m long because longer car = longer wheelbase = longer diffuser = more underbody downforce created that generates less drag than downforce created by wings/bodywork. A longtail sportscar is designed to improve aero efficiency, it basically helps to reduce drag but it doesn't create much downforce without a diffuser of the same lenght.
I think LMH and lmdh will be about 5m long because those extra 30-35cm will be used to design longer diffusers, copying what f1 teams are doing since 2017.