Is Club motorsport important to the growth of the top?

[Matthew Ronke]

from a recent study on Auslesiure the following statement

Approximately 30% of Australians currently play their favourite sport, while 37% used to play and 33% have never played.

This was for 1,500 Australian surveyed.

If this holds true for Motorsport then 2/3 of interested people are actually former participants in Motorsport (circuit/go-karting/speedway).

There is heated debate at time about if V8 Supercars should invest back in Motorsport for growth. I recall Bazil arguing that they do by paying a dividend back to teams who re-invest it.

I guess the survey also shows that permanent circuits play a large role in developing crowds. It could also be argued that people take up the sport because of V8 Supercars.

A lot of people have said before that’s not V8 Supercars job it is CAMS.
I am interested to hear people thoughts?

[MarkInTheStands]

Maybe I am putting my nose in where it is not wanted as I have no experience in Motorsport apart from being an avid fan for many years and working with a Sponsor for 2 years, about 4 years back.

If V8Supercars makes a profit then it should be used to help fund increased facilities for itself and hence lower forms of Motorsport.

But the question is, does V8Supercars make a profit?

Forget if you will the debate over how much things cost to run, or how much of a pay check the Black Wiggle or his "Minions" get, but look more at the lower end of pit lane, hell not even the lower end of Pit lane, we are hearing Britek is owing $$$ to SBR, that SGR got hosed by SprintGas and as such are looking for more $$$ and maybe selling a license to keep afloat. TKR was and always will be a joke while run by the bloke it was, but you get my point.

Then follow on from that point that the V8 Circus also takes in the V8DS and other associated series that run a part or complete program at V8 rounds if the V8's can't spread the wealth to those categories as well to ensure that they only have to find a modest amount of sponsors $$$ to run then no it is not profitable.

From what you said, you also have to look at a Sport with much higher participation, Rugby League, however the economies are much smaller, in reality you could compare someone like Parramatta with a team that spends 12 million on a year in the V8's

However here there is some benefit, the lower forms of rugby league get some support from the big clubs, but indeed local clubs and the NRL clubs for the main rely on licensed facilities for $$$ for juniors. Those Junior clubs that also have their own licensed facilities become the bigger clubs and have the better facilities.

If circuits are only looking to make their yearly budgets up from a big mainstream event every year and hence cover the local racing and cannot go out of their way to upgrade or enhance any facilities then they will need to find additional revenue streams to get to that point. This is where they need the popular bracket of the sport to help them out with publicity or pressure on governments and where (after reading this forum) many in the motorsport community feel that V8Supercars is letting them down with their fervor for street race events.

Hell, maybe I am advocating that every raceway should also have an associated licensed premises to help it make its money, but then again those are no longer the cash cows they once were.

[Trevor]

All I will say is that someone needs to look after the bottom end.

I am not going to bag CAMS, AASA or V8Supercars, but there is one of those 3 who seems more interested in developing the sport at the lower end and without that development then the sport will slowly deteriorate.

All permenant tracks will focus on the lower end as they see it as their bread and butter now and into the future.

[RotorFan]

I think V8 Supercars should directly invest in "lower" levels of motorsport.

Or failing that, indirectly through pushing for, or even building better facilities in motorsport.

The problem is that they seem to be doing the exact opposite: do everything they can to impoverish other forms of motorsport. Look at what they have achieved with getting the NSW government to support a ridiculous event such as the Homebush race. With that kind of clout they could have got an entire circuit built if they wanted to. Its not so much a matter of responsibility to support other motorsport, but a question of ethics.

I don't think its ethical to have a track being demolished for houses, meanwhile constructing a temporary circuit on the streets for use of the privileged few.

Not really answering your question, sorry. Club motorsport is still very expensive and very time consuming, and nothing V8 Supercars do would change that. But at the moment they're making it that much harder.

[peckstar]

Not sure how they are making it harder Rotor? could you explain it for me please?

[RotorFan]

By pursuing temporary race circuits that take money/exposure/etc away from permanent circuits.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by RotorFan

By pursuing temporary race circuits that take money/exposure/etc away from permanent circuits.

I don't think that has been the case in Australia. The reason being the street events can hold more people and more corporate guests. And it has brought more fans, more interest and more sponsors in.

Balance is good no doubt and permanent circuits have a place at the table as well. But motorsport began on street circuits and it is a "pure" form of racing and it has it's place as well.

I don't think the permanent circuits are hurting that much as most of them as far as I can see are booked up almost everyday. Reading my recent ARDC newsletter the track has been busy with something almost every single day.

I have argued this point with rallying people in the USA that want rallying to stay in the dark woods with no spectators. Yet those same people bemoan the lack of volunteers and drivers/entries. However if people never see it, they can never get interested in it and you wont stay alive as a sport.

Therefore I'd argue V8 Supercars bringing their show to Adelaide, GC, Townsville, the GP and Sydney opens up the sport to a lot of new people and there are probably a lot of people that see it that want to get involved somehow in motorsport.

In regards to permanent circuits, I have been to them all over the world and I work at them so I have a familiarity somewhat with daily operations of a permanent circuit. The smart owners are the ones that keep their facilities clean and kept up, provide good customer service to all that use the place and seek out a variety of clients. Plus they find and promote good race meetings that source a variety of motorsports. I've seen really bad tracks and some really good ones.

In regards to V8SC, I don't believe they have a financial responsibility to promote "young talent". V8's themselves have created a whole industry of which didn't really exist 15 years ago. And I would reckon I see a lot of support categories and other series like the Shannon Nationals that didn't exist much 15-20 years ago either.

Also I think V8's getting directly involved in picking and funding drivers or teams doesn't send a good message. It needs to stay a neutral organization. However if teams wish to do so, then fine.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

Also I think V8's getting directly involved in picking and funding drivers or teams doesn't send a good message. It needs to stay a neutral organization. However if teams wish to do so, then fine.

I agree with most everything you say, except this bit. The teams are having less and less money to put into anything, and if they are putting it in, they are putting it into the sanctioned second tier event, the Fujitsu series and not much else.

[peckstar]

isnt that good though Big Trev

This in turn means we have a competitive series meaning that teams from a lower level series can then step up knowing they will get exposure because of the competiitvenessof the series.

Also we have some drivers take interest in lower level series and support them, ie minis F3 FF and Carerra cup

[retro]

Did anyone bother to read the report...it doesn't even mention Motorsport, V8's or Circuits...

Otherwise carry on...

EIGHT IN 10 AUSTRALIANS INTERESTED IN SPORT
20-10-2009


SPORT - RECREATION - RESEARCH
Australia’s dominant football codes might have the critical mass of supporters, but other sports have the most passionate and dedicated followers, according to the Sensis® Consumer Report released today.

The report, which interviewed 1,500 Australians nationwide between 18th August and 21nd September, provides a quarterly analysis of the issues affecting the nation.

Report author Christena Singh said the findings reconfirmed Australians’ love affair with sport.

“Sport appears to be the great leveller in Australia, with interest and participation spanning all socio-economic and age groups.”
Overall, the report shows eight in 10 Australians are interested in sport, with a wide range of sports being followed.
“It is probably not surprising AFL, NRL and cricket are the most popular sports among Australians, holding the critical mass of supporters.
“However, what may be surprising to some is cycling, football, swimming, horse racing, basketball and netball are the sports which have the most passionate and committed followers,” Singh explained.
Overall, 69% of cycling enthusiasts said the sport played a very important part in their lives, making them by far the most passionate followers.
“And when it comes to attendance, when we see interest translating into action, it is basketball that has the most committed supporters.”


Approximately 30% of Australians currently play their favourite sport, while 37% used to play and 33% have never played."


Australians’ favourite sports:
• AFL (21%)
• NRL (12%)
• Cricket (11%)
• Football (11%)
• Tennis (9%)
• Swimming (4%)
• Netball (4%).

Australians’ most passionate supporters (Percentage of people who said their favourite sport was a very important part of their lives):
• Cycling (69%)
• Swimming (61%)
• Horse racing (55%)
• Football (39%).

Number of times per year supporters attend their favourite sport:
• Basketball (13 times per year)
• Cycling (10 times per year)
• Swimming (10 times per year)
• Netball (10 times per year)
• Football (nine times per year).

The Sensis® Consumer Report is available from xxxxxxx on xxxxxxxxxxxx.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by retro

Did anyone bother to read the report...it doesn't even mention Motorsport, V8's or Circuits...

Otherwise carry on...

Car racing is a whole different deal I think to many other sports. Anyone can go buy a football or soccer ball and start kicking it around.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

I agree with most everything you say, except this bit. The teams are having less and less money to put into anything, and if they are putting it in, they are putting it into the sanctioned second tier event, the Fujitsu series and not much else.

Well at the end of the day their core business is V8 Supercars anyways.

However there are instances of teams/owners supporting drivers in other categories than Fujitsu. I think Garry Rogers/Valvoline has helped out a few in FF, Brad Jones I think was helping a driver this year in FF, etc. Plus many teams have given drivers chances with days of testing. I'm sure there are many other instances I just can't think of at the moment.

[PVDA]

To answer the OP question I say yes. The vast majority of top end racers start at club or state level (unless daddy can put them straight into the main Formula Ford series).

AASA is doing quite nicely looking after club level events so there is obviously a market for it.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by peckstar

isnt that good though Big Trev

This in turn means we have a competitive series meaning that teams from a lower level series can then step up knowing they will get exposure because of the competiitvenessof the series.

Also we have some drivers take interest in lower level series and support them, ie minis F3 FF and Carerra cup

Don't get all excited and start believing I have turned peck, coz I haven't.

All the series you suggest in your post above hang off the V8Supercar name, as does the FF that is talked about in a post a couple below you.

What about the many thousands of "grass roots" racers who will never get exposure by hanging off the apron strings of the V8's? Who helps them?

As PVDA suggests, there is a least one trying to help, the other thinks they are, but are very dependant on the crumbs from the V8's.

If it wasn't for the permenant tracks like Oran Park, Esatern Creek, Qld Raceway, Barbagello, Symmons Plains, Winton, Wakefeild Park, (the newly rejuvinated) Lakeside and any of those "real" tracks that open their gates to the many thousands of wannabe's (just like me) there wouldn't be anything coming up through the ranks. All these so called "stars" of today wouldn't be where they are now if it wasn't for their parents and the parents passion for the sport and the "real" racetracks of Australia.

[D.R.T.]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I don't think that has been the case in Australia. The reason being the street events can hold more people and more corporate guests. And it has brought more fans, more interest and more sponsors in.

Can street races hold more people? I would be very surprised as there are some big big permanent circuits out there.

Street races havent improved participation and numbers at permanent circuits either, despite plenty insinuation to the contrary.

Originally Posted by mountainstar

V8's themselves have created a whole industry of which didn't really exist 15 years ago. And I would reckon I see a lot of support categories and other series like the Shannon Nationals that didn't exist much 15-20 years ago either.

15 years ago you other strong categories such as Super Touring, Formula Brabham/Holden, Production cars and Truck Racing who attracted sponsors and manufacturers and werent piliged by V8SA to run at their events.

The Shannons Nationals are the best value for money motorsport tour in Australia at the current time however it is supported soley by competitors wallets.

I am not suggesting that V8SA pay and provide money for other motorsport events, however they should not operate in away that hinders Australian Motorsport and its stakeholders. A wise man one said "not a responsibility for motorsport but a responsibility to motorsport".

[inpitlane]

The people responsible for promoting grass roots motorsport are grass roots motorsport people. And they do an appalling job of it. The one exception is karting which is growing steadily and drawing bigger crowds and more young competitors. (and yes Arrow Karts are the main sponsor of In Pit Lane and they seem delighted and recently re-signed)
It was interesting to see the V8 teams represented at Horsepower Heaven last weekend at Todd Road and the rewards for the promoters who put on a show for the spectators and corporates. It already looks like paying off with several good sized sponsors looking to get involved next year as unlike most other forms of motorsport, karting, like motoX and drifting appeals to a younger demographic. One major V8 sponsor told me that they were ready to "throw **** loads of money" towards karting next year as it's administration is moving to a more professional outlook with meetings like Horsepower Heaven.
The David Sera deal with Kelly Racing will be the way of the future with young talent coming straight out of karts and possibly bypassing F Ford all together.
As a training ground State and Club level racing has its place but if I was looking to develop a driver for a full time career the best thing to do is to get them out of Australia as quickly as possible.
I mean at the Vic State level we can't even get one co-ordinated professionally run State series, despite having some of the best cars and drivers in the country. I'm led to believe there may be a meeting at Winton this weekend. Is there? What is it? Why should people go? who'll be driving? what cool cars will I see? How much is it going to cost? How are you as the promoters value adding to the experience for spectators and sponsors? What's your marketing budget and strategy?
Answers on the back of an envelope please and include your name and address so we can send your prize back to you.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

Don't get all excited and start believing I have turned peck, coz I haven't.

All the series you suggest in your post above hang off the V8Supercar name, as does the FF that is talked about in a post a couple below you.

What about the many thousands of "grass roots" racers who will never get exposure by hanging off the apron strings of the V8's? Who helps them?

As PVDA suggests, there is a least one trying to help, the other thinks they are, but are very dependant on the crumbs from the V8's.

If it wasn't for the permenant tracks like Oran Park, Esatern Creek, Qld Raceway, Barbagello, Symmons Plains, Winton, Wakefeild Park, (the newly rejuvinated) Lakeside and any of those "real" tracks that open their gates to the many thousands of wannabe's (just like me) there wouldn't be anything coming up through the ranks. All these so called "stars" of today wouldn't be where they are now if it wasn't for their parents and the parents passion for the sport and the "real" racetracks of Australia.

And most of those tracks are doing reasonably well and the ones that are not there are probably things they could do to make changes.

Mostly what it comes down to is due to V8 Supercars great success over the years it doesn't mean they now have to take responsibility for promoting the rest of motorsport. And even if they could I'm glad they don't. Businesses that ignore their core business usually go out of business. So really those involved at the lower levels it is the responsibility on their part for their success, permanent tracks included.

[Trevor]

Originally Posted by inpitlane

I mean at the Vic State level we can't even get one co-ordinated professionally run State series, despite having some of the best cars and drivers in the country. I'm led to believe there may be a meeting at Winton this weekend. Is there? What is it? Why should people go? who'll be driving? what cool cars will I see? How much is it going to cost? How are you as the promoters value adding to the experience for spectators and sponsors? What's your marketing budget and strategy?
Answers on the back of an envelope please and include your name and address so we can send your prize back to you.

The problem in money, as the 'promoters' are keeping their fees low to attract competitors, and as any sort of advertising is expensive, so you don't have to be a Einstein to work out why there is very little promotion. A bit of a vicious circle really.

[Henry]

To cut my ill-qualified rant short, I would opine in the humblest manner, that it is the duty of ALL motorsport participants to foster and nurture their sport. The beginnings of V8 Supercar were designed to do that, in days when it was difficult to guarantee a full field for a season, the system that TEGA et al implemented was originally aimed at doing just that - a franchise system by which participants were granted entry on the grounds that they showed up every time, no matter what, and in returned would they not only avoid LD's, but also get a return on their investment.

Noble stuff, but it seems that it came at the expense of a lot of other categories and events.

It also excluded the participation of many of the characters who had enhanced the tapestry of local racing lore, the panelbeaters, spanner monkeys, wreckers, solicitors, car dealers, coppers, publicans, disco operators and truck drivers who had the wherewithal, the dedication and the enthusiasm to slap a car together and have a go.

Doubtless, it's the same sort of drive that gets the Frostys, the Whincups, the Courtneys and Tanders to the top in the present day... but to tune into Supercars, you don't really see any of that, because it's a series in isolation. You won't find a tribe of codgers fronting with a V8Supercar to have a stab at a State Touring Car Championship, nor have them accepted for an entry at Bathurst.

Guess it means that it falls to categories other than national touring cars, to enable participation in our favoured sport...

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by inpitlane

I'm led to believe there may be a meeting at Winton this weekend. Is there? What is it? Why should people go? who'll be driving? what cool cars will I see? How much is it going to cost? How are you as the promoters value adding to the experience for spectators and sponsors? What's your marketing budget and strategy?

Originally Posted by Big_Trev

The problem in money, as the 'promoters' are keeping their fees low to attract competitors, and as any sort of advertising is expensive, so you don't have to be a Einstein to work out why there is very little promotion. A bit of a vicious circle really.

But Trev our friends up North don't even bother to send out info (as simple as an e-mail) to the usual outlets (like In Pit Lane) who can mention it.

The VMRC is designed for the competitors to get maximum laps & races so anyone who wanders in the gate (for free by the way) for a look is a bonus especially if they buy something at the canteen but they could still tell people it's on. A certain Moderator from here might even make the 1 hour trek south for a look if he knew it was on and free entry for spectators.

[TOOTHFAIRY]

I have read with intrest, everyones thought's, It is a massive debate, and one that will see many different point's of veiw, but unfortunatly it all comes down to one thing MONEY. It's a dirty word but the more you spend the more you get, in terms of Motorsport any way. Club motorsport is exactly that, Dont think its cheap for the Organizers to put on cause it aint. But it is for the "quote normal person", to have a go at, if he or she likes it, they have many and varied Catagorys they may try, it's the customers choice to race what and when they like, at many tracks all over the country. The organizers aren't paid, the Officials aren't paid, The track charges the organizers a fee, normally 5 figures per weekend, and we go racing, contrary to some peoples opinion, those who promote Club racing work bloody hard, and put up with a lot of crap, to make it happen all for no reward, exepting keeping the passion for Motorsport alive. Thats grassroots racing, and we who do it, and are involved in the admin are quiet well aware of our place, if you want to it gives you the oportunity to advance your skills and try National Events, but that costs more MONEY, [that word again], but if you really want to make your big fortune a small one, then go and race at the Main Game and get involved with FRANCHIZES, YEP they cost constant big MONEY, force you to run when you cant afford it but guess what you signed the aggrement. My main aim to all this is we are LUCKY in this country we have all types of Motorsport and we as individuals choose our path, big time high budget or small time afford it when we can, neither should pay for one another, as user pays and thats us. So we all pay for our sport ,if you want to own it and put in a driver, where does he come from?, usually the lower form of the sport ,than your in, eg; State Series to Shannon;s to Main Game. to O/S/?, So no matter how much we all differ in opinion, it all the same circle. Just depends on the MONEY.

[bazil]

Originally Posted by D.R.T.

Can street races hold more people? I would be very surprised as there are some big big permanent circuits out there.

Regardless of personal preference or opinion, they certainly attract more...

15 years ago you other strong categories such as Super Touring, Formula Brabham/Holden, Production cars and Truck Racing who attracted sponsors and manufacturers and werent piliged by V8SA to run at their events.

The Power tour had moderate success without Supercar involvement and had television but did not have the wider audience appeal to match or compete with Supercars. Sponsors are advertisers and most will go for "bang for buck exposure" with the biggest profile. All of the categories you have mentioned went backwards or eventually disappeared, are you suggesting this is also Supercars fault…?

The Shannons Nationals are the best value for money motorsport tour in Australia at the current time however it is supported soley by competitors wallets.

So is virtually all amateur sport. It is always nice when a business or group has a passion for amateur motorsport and is prepared to tip some dollars their way, but it’s never really based on expectation of real return on investment. Grass root racers are still willingly and knowingly, involving themselves in a money guzzling past time, no grey area there. It’s an expensive activity

I am not suggesting that V8SA pay and provide money for other motorsport events, however they should not operate in away that hinders Australian Motorsport and its stakeholders. A wise man one said "not a responsibility for motorsport but a responsibility to motorsport".[/

How does it hinder other motorsport?? Oran Park did not close because of Supercars; Eastern Creek is not held back or hindered from running events and providing grass root involvement. The Parks coming closure has been well known to the motorsport fraternity for many many years. Where are examples of the wise men with their plans and/or raffles to raise money to lobby for a new Sydney basin replacement track?? The only noise I heard was the ripping up of member’s money to ask for another $100 mil for the Creek, not another new facility for the greater "good" of motorsport and the clubby racer.


Forgetting for a second the potentially wasted debate above;


I think Club motorsport is vital to the growth and standard of the top of the sport. It’s from karting and the cheaper classes of racing that skills are learnt and talent levels appear. All sports have a base and nearly all who start have dreams of the top or somewhere higher up the scale, but not everyone is going to win or even come close to winning or progressing up.

I think all sports have a responsibility to their growth and development and in Australia, that should include all motorport stake holders; Tracks, promoters, competitors, CAMS… everyone.

Here is an idea. Have CAMS charge all sponsors in Australian motorsport a small levy or donation towards a youth/club racer development fund.

[PVDA]

Hey Toothfairy. Try paragraphs, it makes long posts a lot easier to read.

Good comments in the post though.

[BFC]

Originally Posted by PVDA

Hey Toothfairy. Try paragraphs, it makes long posts a lot easier to read.

Good comments in the post though.

Your allowed to stop and take a breath while reading even tho it hasnt got paragraphs

[NewsStalker]

The Power tour had moderate success without Supercar involvement and had television but did not have the wider audience appeal to match or compete with Supercars.

Sure your not getting this confused with ProCar? The PowerTour lasted, what? 2 years and had miserable crowds and more infighting than a staged WCW match!

As to promotion - the problem with most club sport (whether it be athletics, roller blades, bikes or motorsport) is that the peopl promoting it tend to forget about their trade papers/magazines until about 1-2 weeks before the event and then complain that anything they put out didn't get printed.

They need to get of their collectives and ensure - for motorsport at least - that a release is send to MSN and AA at least 6 weeks before the event. The less these guys have to write themselves, the better for them.

And then there are the local Advertiser papers (everyone seems to forget about these but almost every household in the country gets at least one variety of these papers).

So don't anyone ever try to complain 'but we can't get anything printed/published' - nothing happens if you don't do it yourselves.