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31 May 2007, 17:54 (Ref:1925562) | #276 | |||||||||||
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I am saying they don't use them in the same way. Quote:
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However it highlights your problem, you are simply dealing in absolutes when challenging others. It aint just yes or no. Quote:
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Last edited by Adam43; 31 May 2007 at 17:59. |
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31 May 2007, 18:02 (Ref:1925566) | #277 | ||
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The key is how it is applied. How McLaren applied it on Sunday was fine, it was intelligent and thoughtfully implemented. Monaco is dangerous, so therefore it was best to hold station. Furthermore, Ron has said they will be allowed to race on more suitable tracks. Which I assume means any track bar Monaco! Time will tell of course, but I believe him 100%. History backs me up. Also the FIA have no problem with team orders deep down I don't think. We saw this in 2005 when McLaren and Renault were playing team games. It is still an accepted part of the championship and always will be. Team orders won't be tolerated if they are performed in a cynical manner or make an absolute mockery of proceedings. I suppose this is open to interpretation to some (some thought Monaco was a mockery strangely) but is fairly obvious what it means if people use common sense. There will be a lot more team orders to come this season alone, so hold onto your hats. |
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31 May 2007, 18:21 (Ref:1925581) | #278 | ||
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Quote:"avoid the uproar we see in Melbourne 98, Austria 02, and especially the unneccessary one in Monaco 07."
Unneccessary as in the uproar is unneccessary, not the orders. Perhaps if you take the context of my posts, since post-Monaco, you may realise that i'm very much accepting Mclaren's startegy. Now that we have at least come to a common ground that Mclaren is using team orders, fine. I know you are aware that Mclaren uses team orders, but maybe you should realise that my posts were not directed at you, but rather to some others who really are not aware, or deny that Mclaren is actually capable of using team orders/strategy like other teams. Of course every team is different in their approach. Ferrari did it in an open and clear way that everyone knows they does it. Many were offended, but some do prefer it as they know for example, that Rubens was really better than MS in Austria 2002. Mclaren, and many other teams, take a more discrete approach. It doesnt ruffle feathers, but many a times, we may just pass it off as the driver behind was inferior (ie DC), even when team orders are implemented. We don't know doesn't mean it didn't happen, just that it gives us a scope hoping that it didn't. Let me just give you one example (a sensitive one, but try to take it as neutral as possible). In early day BAR, JV had a no.1 status, and at occasional races, had a new evolution engine or par which Zonta/Panis doesn't have. Such information wasnt openly available, but just a minor mention in racing magazine tech sections. But to many fans, should JV outperform Panis/Zonta, they won't know it's because he had a better deal, but thought JV is just much better. Same senario at Renault in Trulli/Alonso's final season. Trulli suddenly lost form after having the edge on Alonso for the early part of the season, but because of Flavio's words against Trulli, and nobody else shedding light, we don't know if Renault uses team orders/treatment during that period. But Flavio has shown, as with Michael-Benetton days, that he isn't a stranger to that. The point is, while we can say if a team employed a method, who are we to really judge which is the best method? Who are we to judge who has a misunderstanding of the sports? I'm not good at arguments, try hard as i may. I just present my thoughts, with exxamples, and i'm sure a person as learned and knowledgable as you can easily find loopholes to tear it down. And i won't pretend to know more than others. It may be simple to you with "it is, it isn't", but let me assure you that there are many who still thinks that team orders only ever occurred in MS/Ferrari era, or even in Austria 2002. And all we can do is to establish a fair guide, and certain parameters, to try see if certain "strategies" are FUNDAMENTALLY jusifable and reasonable. |
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Alonso: "McLaren and Williams are also great racing teams, but Ferrari is the biggest one that you can go to." |
31 May 2007, 18:27 (Ref:1925584) | #279 | ||
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Knowlesy, i agree with you that team orders will always be around, especially championship contenders.
All i think is that once we accept that team orders are a part of the game, we won't find it a mockery when it's implemented. Because whether it is implemented subtly or blatantly, to effect the results is in a way a mockery on it's own. But once you accept this influence of results, then i believe it would save us and the teams many trouble. I am all too aware of what Gilles had encountered, and would be angered if Hamilton had tried to disobey orders and risk overtaking Alonso. What we should recognise is that to hide it behind a series of facade doesn't make team orders more tasteful, or tasteless, than it is. |
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Alonso: "McLaren and Williams are also great racing teams, but Ferrari is the biggest one that you can go to." |
31 May 2007, 18:52 (Ref:1925594) | #280 | |
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It is a tough one though and depends on the situation.
The "holding station" one is an easy situation. Ask your drivers to slow down, that simple. Apart from the egos! When you have to swap your drivers positions it is tougher and easier to appear hamfisted. Ferrari in Austria 2001 and 2002 was extremely embarrassing, most notably because the position swap happened on the finish line. McLaren in Spa 2005 was quite bad in the sense that McLaren were trying to hide what they were doing when it really wasn't necessary. Raikkonen needed the points and Montoya would have to move over. But the way they did it was cringeworthy. McLaren didn't want to swap their drivers in the conventional sense so all of a sudden we had Montoya slowing prior to his stop to allow Kimi to catch so he could pass in the pitstops. So it is important, for me, if the teams are both open and implement the orders in a correct fashion. But that is very difficult of course. |
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31 May 2007, 19:02 (Ref:1925602) | #281 | ||||||||||||||
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My point has never gone as far as judging the best method, or judging anything; it is just to promote an understanding that every team does things differently. That the argument "they all do it" falls short of understanding the situation. Quote:
However, if we accept that teams do employ these orders differently, then I find it natural that some people prefer one way to another. Hence they may prefer one team's method to another. As Ferrari is at an extreme it is not surprising that some may not like this approach. Quote:
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However some fans see that there are different kinds (styles?) of team orders and prefer some over the other. I think this may be were the FIA got it wrong with their introduction of that team order rule. It seemed to suggest that it was all or nothing. Or maybe they got it right, as we see from the latest judgement. Whatever I would scrap that rule and let the teams do what they want. Quote:
Last edited by Adam43; 31 May 2007 at 19:06. |
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31 May 2007, 22:43 (Ref:1925761) | #282 | ||
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1 Jun 2007, 05:47 (Ref:1925887) | #283 | ||
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Yeah understood, the key is that some teams do it differently, more blatantly than others, perhaps it is that that frustrates me so much. I am not being anti-Ferrari as if they were dominating F1 with two competitive drivers and two competitive cars I wouldn't have complained one bit. It was the frustrating nature of knowing exactly which car was going to win every race beacuse the other one was simply second fiddle, from lap 1 of race 1, to the final lap of the final race of the Championship.
Back to the point, the two McLarens are level on points, as they constantly go after two competitive drivers, Montoya and Raikkonen was a cocktail on it's own, this is going to be truly breathtaking. To sum up, I would rather see two cars from teh same team winning races, than just one from the same team. By the way, has anyone noticed when I joined this damn place? I have been here the longest by some margin unless I am very much mistaken. '99, I had barely flown solo for the first time the day after my 16th birthday, now I own a russian aerobatic plane with some other fellow pilots and am on the way to competing at the top of Aerobatic competition and being an airshow pilot, crikey, I feel old! Mind you I may have been here ages but I have posted barely a sniff of what some of teh other fellows have posted, still, a close fought championship, I can hardly wait. Post of rubbish finished. |
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1 Jun 2007, 06:52 (Ref:1925921) | #284 | ||||
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Seriously not taking motorsport too seriously. |
1 Jun 2007, 07:05 (Ref:1925928) | #285 | |||
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Then I doubt he had 6 laps more fuel. His qualifiying performance would have have shown a greater difference than it did. Why would Ron do it. He stoped when he had to as he had only that much fuel (still had a pit stop advantage). He failed to show early in the race the ability to hound Alonso and put himself in the position he needed to to genuinely threaten Alonso at the first stop even if he had a 6 lap fuel advantage. He was fueled and therefore stopped when he had to on the second stop. Lewis is managing the media for his own purposes, drivers all do, why not it is a proffession remember. The British press in particular need it, what else have they got at the moment as Button is nowhere (thank Honda for that), David close to retirement (in more ways than one driving a Red Bull). Lewis is a great driver, so is Alonso. Alonso did what he had to to beat him (importantly incuding getting pole). Roll on the next race. The whole arguement is a farce. |
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1 Jun 2007, 07:41 (Ref:1925957) | #286 | ||||
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I think you have missed the conclusion to this from the FIA.
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59282 Think safety car more than the above. |
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1 Jun 2007, 18:51 (Ref:1926455) | #287 | ||
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I think DC sums it up
http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/59334 and I totally agree with him |
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Nostagia ain't what it used to be! |
2 Jun 2007, 13:28 (Ref:1926860) | #288 | |
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22 Jun 2007, 07:32 (Ref:1943955) | #289 | ||
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On the subject of that last cartoon. Are there calls to investigate McLaren over potentially holding Alonso back at the end of the USGP?
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22 Jun 2007, 07:35 (Ref:1943957) | #290 | ||
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I hope not.
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"The world is my country, and science is my religion." - Christian Huygens: 17th century Dutch astronomer. |
22 Jun 2007, 16:18 (Ref:1944369) | #291 | ||
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Only if there's a spanish side in McLaren...
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Show me a man who won't give it to his woman An' I'll show you somebody who will |
22 Jun 2007, 17:23 (Ref:1944407) | #292 | ||
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Ironically, it is all very quiet! |
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22 Jun 2007, 17:29 (Ref:1944410) | #293 | ||
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Shocker. Never would've guessed it.
The dedication of the mainstream media (both general and niche genres) to truth rather than manipualtion in the name of sales...That is not to say we shouldn't acknowledge the individuals who shae the same mentality in their personal lives. It is awe inspiring in both cases. Honest. Last edited by Dutton; 22 Jun 2007 at 17:31. |
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"The world is my country, and science is my religion." - Christian Huygens: 17th century Dutch astronomer. |
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