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Old 21 Oct 2009, 13:47 (Ref:2566318)   #26
iconway
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Roger, in theory an M1 is more period-correct than a B8 (Graham Hill drove one in the August '65 Brands Hatch Guards Trophy race) though of course it's down to the organisers at the end of the day. Wouldn't that be something, if the HSCC ran two separate grids and not only pulled in more GTs but some real fire-breathing sports-racers. Anyone have a 365 P2 gathering dust?!
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 13:47 (Ref:2566320)   #27
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PS I found the thread eventually, many thanks John.
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 14:19 (Ref:2566338)   #28
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Sorry Ian, should have left a note!

Yes the M1 is more period than B8, but you are simply changing the cars not the problem, unless this issue over speed differentials is a smokescreen for another issue.

May I also point out that a Pre 66 car has twice nearly beaten the B8s in the 3 Hours the last 2 years running, so we need to exclude that, too? And there were some pretty quick laps from some of the Pre 66 1600cc cars too.

As for the Silverstone International circuit in its current form, I think that you will lose some of it in the planned revisions, and you may be leaving Abbey in the opposite direction.

Oh, and do all these events have to be at Silverstone? Leave a few for the other circuits. Yeah, I know I'm only a spectator - bottom of the pile!
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 14:27 (Ref:2566344)   #29
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
more than a speccy - you are the ten tenths official smudger!! I agree it all becomes a bit Silverstone centric (which is odd when you consider how many apparently hate it) but it does have all the facilities and is so central.
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 14:50 (Ref:2566359)   #30
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John, I personally don't have an issue with the speed differential, nor would I be in favour of excluding other cars and drivers. I actually like sports-racing cars (one of my favourite HSCC races to watch is the Orwell Super-Sports, although I wouldn't want to race with them!), but it's probably as much of a drag for them having to avoid me as it is for me avoiding them. Of course it would be nice to have a GT race every now and then (as it was in Classic Sports Cars, pre-Guards), but as GW explained it's a matter of time (fitting in extra races) and money (Silverstone is not cheap!). Maybe Castle Combe or Brands would be suitable? Meanwhile, next season I'll just try and go a bit faster, not get in people's way, and maybe catch the person in front (nearly did it at Brands).
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 14:52 (Ref:2566361)   #31
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Or Cadwell? (just noticed your location, ahem)
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 16:02 (Ref:2566420)   #32
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It depends which cars you'd want to run there. It's a lovely circuit but narrow and presumably restricted on grid size. The last time HSCC ran a Guards race there, it was not that well subscribed, if I recall correctly.
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 16:10 (Ref:2566427)   #33
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Incidentally, apropos our reference to the Silverstone International circuit, I've had it pretty much confirmed that it will not be available next season; that work is to go ahead over a period of ten months or so and that after that, there will be a choice of 7 circuit combinations!

This begs the question as to what circuits will actually be available to clubs in 2010 and whether the absence of the International circuit might have an effect upon circuit venue choice for some clubs. It's hard enough for clubs to fix their calendars at the best of times since they have to wait until all the big meetings are booked before circuits make weekends available. With Donington, Silverstone, and possibly Snetterton going through the changes, setting next year's dates for Clubbies has got a whole lot more difficult.

Since this is a spin off from the main discussion off, I might create another new thread if it becomes a talking point.

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Old 21 Oct 2009, 16:14 (Ref:2566434)   #34
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It depends which cars you'd want to run there. It's a lovely circuit but narrow and presumably restricted on grid size. The last time HSCC ran a Guards race there, it was not that well subscribed, if I recall correctly.
The Blue Book says 'Racing and Sports Racing Cars up to 1600cc' - 26, and 'Other classes' - 28. I wonder if that means over 1600cc sports racers not allowed at the circuit anymore or if it's a misprint?

The 'not that well subscribed' issue applies to all classes unfortunately. It's a long way for those southern softi..... err, lads to travel.
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 16:19 (Ref:2566441)   #35
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Incidentally, apropos our reference to the Silverstone International circuit, I've had it pretty much confirmed that it will not be available next season; that work is to go ahead over a period of ten months or so and that after that, there will be a choice of 7 circuit combinations!

This begs the question as to what circuits will actually be available to clubs in 2010 and whether the absence of the International circuit might have an effect upon circuit venue choice for some clubs. It's hard enough for clubs to fix their calendars at the best of times since they have to wait until all the big meetings are booked before circuits make weekends available. With Donington, Silverstone, and possibly Snetterton going through the changes, setting next year's dates for Clubbies has got a whole lot more difficult.

Since this is a spin off from the main discussion off, I might create another new thread if it becomes a talking point.
yet another reason to look sur le continent..
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 16:57 (Ref:2566474)   #36
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Oh no. That's one of my favourite circuits!
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 17:33 (Ref:2566492)   #37
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I was there and I think the GT's were keen to ensure all were compliant. As far as that goes I think it is right to at least present your hologram at scrutineering. There should be spot checks limited to the cars that clearly seem to be out performing their peers, any more becomes logistically a nightmare. The meeting did become a bit sprocket length orientated for me and my despraxia kicked in..
However I do sympathise with the smaller GT's when they say that they are unwilling to run with Guards because of the speed differential of the Chevrons but they should not forget that the B8's ar ethere as an invitation class. If there were enough GT's (and pre 66 twin cam sports racers) they would not get a race.....
Are spot checks even taking place?

I've been racing with two cars at several hscc meetings this year and I have never seen any checks taking place to make sure our cars and others confirm to the regulations/championships.

I would even consider a small additional cost on an entry fee to ensure these checks take place at least once a year to ensure a level playing field.
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 19:27 (Ref:2566547)   #38
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Oh no. That's one of my favourite circuits!

You want them to keep the GP?
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Old 21 Oct 2009, 22:28 (Ref:2566692)   #39
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Roger, in theory an M1 is more period-correct than a B8 (Graham Hill drove one in the August '65 Brands Hatch Guards Trophy race) though of course it's down to the organisers at the end of the day. Wouldn't that be something, if the HSCC ran two separate grids and not only pulled in more GTs but some real fire-breathing sports-racers. Anyone have a 365 P2 gathering dust?!
Well I am desperate to race my Lola T160, which is pre-aero Can-Am, but seems to fall between 2 stools, ie not competitve in Orwell, but not Gp 4 enough for Masters Sports Racing Cars.

It raced inthe old Foulston organised Atlantic Computer Supersports, when no-one was particularly fussed about what you had it just had to be hairy !

Dont forget that the original Guards Trophy had T70's, it wasnt restricted to 2 litres then.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 03:45 (Ref:2566808)   #40
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rogerwills should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridrogerwills should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
A Lola T160 would be a World Sportscar Masters car (WSM) I'm sure. Have you checked? We run a McLaren M1C which is the same era in WSM.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 07:44 (Ref:2566877)   #41
John Turner
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In itself, the Guards Trophy does not exclude all cars over 2 litres. It has something like 11 classes, many of which may not have raced together in period or indeed in the original Guards Trophy at all. Class D allows 'all standard & Competition GT cars over 4000cc'. This is the class in which Shaun Lynn ran his GT40 at the Autosport 3 hours. I'd love to see more of the early GT cars like this - 250LMs, 904s & Lola Mk 6, but are you now saying there should be yet another class that allows what were as I understand it, early Group 7 CanAm cars - M1, T160 & T70 spyder, because you are turning it into even more of a catchall. And don't these cars having outings elsewhere (Classic, Revival, etc). Don't get me wrong; I love the cars, but how truly representative of the original Guards Trophy are all these classes, even when you have excluded the invitation cars?

The fact is that the HSCC has created a successful series based loosely on the old Guard races. All this talk about what ran in period (but, let's be clear, historically not necessarily together) is a bit of a red herring. This is the current Guards series adapted specifically by HSCC to cater for as many cars as is practically sensible and has proved a successful formula. In fact so much so that, as I have said before, I'm sure that if say 50+ cars were regularly to sign up, then the grids could be split into two. If it was marginal on numbers, perhaps you could add a Gp 7 class up to say 1966, but surely they would go in the field that contained the B8s, not their contemporaries.

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Old 22 Oct 2009, 07:51 (Ref:2566881)   #42
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
radical though this sounds why not limit it to cars that were eligible for Guards Trophy in period upto 66 cut off?
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 09:02 (Ref:2566927)   #43
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Well is that what everybody wants? Who speaks for the Invitation cars, and where do they go? What size grids would we have? Does the 1954 Arnolt Bristol get a place? Bet that never ran in the Guards Trophy, and does Geoffrey O'Connell complain about speed differentials or is he just delighted that he has somewhere to race it. If we allow early Gp 7 cars in, will we have complaints about speed differentials again. Sorry but we all have (different) agendas here.

Is it a successful series? Yes. Could it be split? Possibly, if sufficient entries can be guaranteed? My understanding was that there were no real issues at the drivers meeting last weekend. Am I wrong? There is a case that 'if it ain't broke, don't fix it'. Finally if changes really need to be made because more people want to join the series, great, but go for evolution not revolution.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 09:08 (Ref:2566931)   #44
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
ahhh stage two John is have an occassional series for "Group 4" cars and Historic S2000
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 09:20 (Ref:2566937)   #45
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Wouldnt it be better to have Grp6 and S2000 together similar to the old RJB series and when Guards trophy is split like at OPGC, bring in an over 2000cc invitation class to allow McLaren/Lola T70 Spyders. Wasnt this what happened this year but non of the big boys turned up?
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 09:43 (Ref:2566949)   #46
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
so where would you place the 23b's with Guards or the sports racers? I think they shodul be with sports racers
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 10:53 (Ref:2566990)   #47
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Guards Trophy first impressions

I've been running in Guards this year for the first time having previously raced in Historic Roadsports. The main reason for changing was simply to get more track time while staying with the HSCC which I consider the best of all the organising clubs.

So, first impressions:

1. Good clean racing with no particular issues from the mix of GT and sports racers.
2. Value for money
3. Too few cars in some of the classes (including my own !).
4. Given the number of pre 66 GT cars racing with other series (Masters and Flavien Marcais in particular) the HSCC is missing a significant commercial opportunity by not running a pre 66 GT championship to Appendix K regs. "Build it and they will come".

In reality the marriage of GT cars and sports racers is one of convenience only. I suspect that given the choice both groups would like to do their own thing. If this could be acheived I think that both groups could support decent grids (very full ones for GTs). So the challenge is a practical one for the club/circuits. Not straightforward I know, but if we can make progress year-on-year towards separation then that would be good news all round.

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Old 22 Oct 2009, 11:03 (Ref:2567000)   #48
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simon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridsimon drabble should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
MArk I thought Guards GT is pre 66 FIA or are you saying it is not policed properly? This was brought up in the AGM. I hopw to run an older car in Guards in the not too distant future and would certainly enjoy more running mates who I believe are put off by the front running B8's etc rather than the twin cam sports racers
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 12:06 (Ref:2567048)   #49
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Simon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridSimon Hadfield should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
What should be remembered is that no competitive 23's etc have been run for a while - a good 23 is only 1 second per mile slower than a B8 and an Elva Mk 8 is as quick as a B8 even on M section tyres. It should be noted the B8 is pretty heavy, 170 kgs more than a 23 for example. Frankly the series as is works, is enjoyed and well supported, lets not rock the boat too hard.
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Old 22 Oct 2009, 12:10 (Ref:2567053)   #50
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I agree Simon.
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