[Rumours] Porsche & Volkswagen Group considering entering F1

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I won't hold my breath, we've been waiting long enough for them. TBH if Porsche were to enter F1, I feel they should have already have, but we'll see. I will watch with interest. Who will they go with for starters? Will F1 still fit their agenda down the line? That said Audi can always give it a try, there's a brand that could easily have had success in F1....

If only somehow Porsche and Audi had been previously involved in GP racing...





I am mostly poking fun at you as I assume you meant "modern F1". And even then, VERY modern as for Porsche you have the 1962 winning car and then world championship winning TAG Porsche engine in the mid 1980's

I am puzzled by the comment that alludes that somehow Audi might do better than Porsche in F1. I generally would think that both have quite a bit of recent top tier motorsports experience. Including building hybrid engines with very high combustion efficiency.

I think the main thing that might have worn on people (myself included) is the perpetual rumor that Porsche is looking to do F1. Which be it Porsche, Audi or VAG in general. Seems to be very true at the moment.

Richard

[chillibowl]

coming in with two new works teams seems overly ambitious so if they just came in as an engine manu then it would be with one engine with different branding right?

thus their success would be contingent on which team they supply.

that begs the question which two teams would/could take on VAG engines?

now days, Haas, Williams, Alfa, and Aston require an engine supply that comes with a bunch of other parts so unless VAG is going to be a works team and can supply said parts then those teams cant take a VAG engine on its own.

retooling/restaffing under the budget cap makes going back to full constructor status incredibly difficult without overspending the cap (still dont really know what happens if one overspends though).

Mclaren will stay with Merc as thats a long term deal iirc. Merc, Alpine, and Ferrari will stay works teams. even if Merc pulls out, they are contractually obligated to be an engine manu for a while so their supply will be around until the next Concorde period i would guess.

that just leaves the RB teams and the possibility that VAG comes in as a partner for the RB engine program.

and VAG could have tried to make that play before if they wanted to but didnt. why would RB take them on now that RB seem to have gotten the engine rules that suit their needs? even less so if they win a title this year.

anyways, like most i await optimistically, but really i am expecting the inevitable VAG statement about how pants F1 is lol.

[steve_r]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

Is there a reason why Audi could have more success than Porsche?

Because Audi drivers are very very good and following other cars very very closely. And F1 needs cars that can follow each other closely.








Or some other similar joke about Audis on motorways.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

coming in with two new works teams seems overly ambitious so if they just came in as an engine manu then it would be with one engine with different branding right?

Most likely.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

that begs the question which two teams would/could take on VAG engines?

It seems that VAG would buy at least one team. It's also not clear if they want one or more brands in F1. So lets say VAG makes the leap. They may just pick a brand (lets say Porsche) and label the power unit as Porsche. Maybe the same for the team. They could supply a second team with a power unit and just relabel that. Such a Red Bull powered by Audi. But still using the same Porsche engine as the Porsche F1 team.

Originally Posted by chillibowl

that just leaves the RB teams and the possibility that VAG comes in as a partner for the RB engine program.

and VAG could have tried to make that play before if they wanted to but didnt. why would RB take them on now that RB seem to have gotten the engine rules that suit their needs? even less so if they win a title this year.

Only RB knows, but I tend to think they are keeping their options open. They have solved their problem through end of 2025. But being part of the 2026 power unit negotiations allows them to push to keep the solution simple enough that they could build their own if they needed to do so. And they are building up their powertrain division now to support that. But, they keep their options open to potentially partner with VAG or maybe even a potential return by Honda.

Richard

[P38 in workshop]

I could see the purchase of Sauber filling the need,but they have had many years in which such a move would have been feasible. Something makes me think they don't actually want to be pitched into head on competition with the rest,but perhaps an engine supply deal would suit.The Le Mans projects from both were based on a lot of development time in order to arrive at the one race that mattered with a superior car to anybody else.Having to do this every other weekend with a constantly developing car and with very strong opposition is a very different prospect-one that may cause a lot of apprehension within the VAG empire.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Having to do this every other weekend with a constantly developing car and with very strong opposition is a very different prospect-one that may cause a lot of apprehension within the VAG empire.

Cost controls is a key ask from VAG in their discussion. Including lots of standardization. They probably pretty much agree with you. So they are looking for the cars to be as standardized as much as they can. So this allows development to be highly focused in a smaller number of areas. I expect for them nothing is scarier than having a limited budget plus LOTS of places in which someone can find a tricky solution that you have missed. It's much easier to have a fixed budget with fewer places to look for trick solutions.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/co...-true/6738298/

Quote from Thomas Laudenbach who is head of Porsche motorsports and a VAG representative in the 2026 power unit discussion. The context is Porsche looking for more cost controls than today and how that would increase the potential for Porsche (VAG) to join F1...

This would help balance the cost of increasing the electric capacity of the power units, with Laudenbach suggesting to use more standardised parts in the internal combustion engine.

On the flip side, Mercedes I think is trying to prevent a new entrant from showing up and immediately being competitive.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ne...wolff/6740483/

Quote from Toto...

F1 is the Champions’ League, and nobody can expect to enter the Champions' League for the first time and be straight into the final and go home with the big trophy.

Of course, this idea of extensive standardization is an anathema to many here. But it seems to be the direction F1 is going.

My guess is that F1/FOM/FIA want VAG so badly (and to a degree so do Mercedes, etc. because if they have top level names to race against, it elevates the series and keeps it alive) that they will do what it takes to get a commitment from VAG for 2026+. They just need to get the right balance to allow VAG to feel they can jump into this and have a chance, while at the same time allowing Mercedes to feel that their experience can continue to give them an advantage.

Richard

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

I hope they don't enter because I think their presence will be an anti-climax.

[P38 in workshop]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Cost controls is a key ask from VAG in their discussion. Including lots of standardization. They probably pretty much agree with you. So they are looking for the cars to be as standardized as much as they can. So this allows development to be highly focused in a smaller number of areas.



Of course, this idea of extensive standardization is an anathema to many here. But it seems to be the direction F1 is going.



Richard

I don't watch spec cars racing and have no plans to change this.If the company that seems to be the engineering section of the German civil service can't keep up with the pace of development with their massive resources then they need to do some serious introspection.

[Teretonga]

The TAG turbo was a great engine but only was there for a limited time.
The V12 produced for Arrows was a dud,
Focusing on GT and LMP1/2 (remember Penske LMP2) in a singular environment without the constant competitive pressure enables them to take a measured approach to development and to produce some outstanding engineering but I would question their ability to stay 'floating' on the bubble that is constant development in F1 over a long term.
In their Indycar entrance during the CART era again the engine was a struggle.
We all know Porsche has great engineering and a fantastic Le Mans record but that is a very focused measured environment to compete in where the opposition isn't all jumping around your throat and there is enough time to step back, sum up what you need to do to beat them, and build and develop it unhindered.
Working on a tighter schedule and constant evolution by the hour is a different proposition.

F1 may be a different ball game and the expense of constant development may not one they have the stomach for in the long term.

[chunterer]

Porsche only ever enter to win.

They would prefer to forget about the V12.

I suspect Sauber will become one of the works teams and the other brand will be a ground up job or a PU supplier.

[crmalcolm]

"We look forward to working with you and your team, to complete this important process and to confirm our Formula 1 entry early next year.”

https://www.bosshunting.com.au/sport...-1-entry-2022/

[chunterer]

More wetting of our appetites!! Like that.

I am still of the belief that one of the marques will go all in, and the other will be as a PU Partner.

Sauber is still my pick for the current outfit that VW or Audi will pick for the 'all in'.

With Seidl's very strong links to Weissach, I would put McLaren top of the list for a works PU deal with Porsche.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

I don't watch spec cars racing and have no plans to change this.If the company that seems to be the engineering section of the German civil service can't keep up with the pace of development with their massive resources then they need to do some serious introspection.

Standardisation of electronics to help with cost control happens in Moto GP.No one calls that spec racing.

[bathurst77]

is the grid capped at 20? do vag have to go in via another team or could they do it themselves as 1tth team?

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by bathurst77

is the grid capped at 20? do vag have to go in via another team or could they do it themselves as 1tth team?

If you want to enter an 11th team you need to pay each of the existing teams around $US20million.
Then set up a team.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Alan52

If you want to enter an 11th team you need to pay each of the existing teams around $US20million.
Then set up a team.

If Porsche are so very skilled and make the finest sportscars as Porsche enthusiasts they say, why don't they do F1 properly as works team like Ferrari?

Porsche enthusiasts claim Porsche are finer engineers than Ferrari, yet Porsche Motorsport themselves don't seem to back themselves to enter F1 and do a better job than Ferrari (or Mercedes-Benz or even lowly Alpine)?!

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If Porsche are so very skilled and make the finest sportscars as Porsche enthusiasts they say, why don't they do F1 properly as works team like Ferrari?

Porsche enthusiasts claim Porsche are finer engineers than Ferrari, yet Porsche Motorsport themselves don't seem to back themselves to enter F1 and do a better job than Ferrari (or Mercedes-Benz or even lowly Alpine)?!

Cause they know what they are good at, building a GT car is not the same as an open wheel car.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If Porsche are so very skilled and make the finest sportscars as Porsche enthusiasts they say, why don't they do F1 properly as works team like Ferrari?

Porsche enthusiasts claim Porsche are finer engineers than Ferrari, yet Porsche Motorsport themselves don't seem to back themselves to enter F1 and do a better job than Ferrari (or Mercedes-Benz or even lowly Alpine)?!

Using this argument, Ferrari, Mercedes and Alpine are too scared to race Porsche at Le Mans. Which makes sense since Porsche have more Le Mans victories than all of those manufacturers combined.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

If Porsche are so very skilled and make the finest sportscars as Porsche enthusiasts they say, why don't they do F1 properly as works team like Ferrari?

Porsche enthusiasts claim Porsche are finer engineers than Ferrari, yet Porsche Motorsport themselves don't seem to back themselves to enter F1 and do a better job than Ferrari (or Mercedes-Benz or even lowly Alpine)?!

Because if I was Porsche and had the option of partnering with Red Bull I wouldn’t even consider an alternative.
Look what Red Bull did with the Honda engine program which was close to a failure before they partnered.
In the cost cap era no one is going to be allowed to spend the bottomless pit of money Mercedes have or even the amounts Ferrari have done.I doubt Alpine is the level of success they are aspiring to.
If they want their best chance of success ring Christian Horner yesterday.The opinions of “Porsche enthusiasts” are irrelevant.

[GTRMagic]

Isnt McLaren's Mr Seidl a Porsche alumni?

[E.B]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Isnt McLaren's Mr Seidl a Porsche alumni?

Indeed... he worked his way from Racing Operations Director to quickly become Team Principal of their LMP1 programme for 5 years prior to joining McLaren.

As an aside he also did a number of years with BMW from 2000, working on their F1 programme until they quit F1 in 2009 when he moved over to run their DTM return. A talented man.

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by GTRMagic

Isnt McLaren's Mr Seidl a Porsche alumni?

Again irrelevant to their decision.Agree that Andreas is very talented but that doesn’t mean he will even be at McLaren in 4 years time or that the presence of someone who was running their sports car program 9 years before they come into F1 is any basis for a decision.

[S griffin]

I don't think Seidl cares about Porsche anymore. He's moved on and cares more about McLaren now. Why would he move back to Porsche now?

[Alan52]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I don't think Seidl cares about Porsche anymore. He's moved on and cares more about McLaren now. Why would he move back to Porsche now?

I think some people are saying it would be a factor in what team Porsche chooses to partner with.
Mainly the Red Bull Racing haters who don’t want that deal to happen.

[chunterer]

It's much more to do with how much Porsche were interested in Seidl's move to F1 and/or Mclaren. I strongly suspect they have kept in touch.