THE ALL IN ONE UNIFICATION THREAD

[Purist]

Yeah, Korea is a big question mark.

I assume you're thinking about Lausitzring for Germany and Motegi for Japan. Correct me if there are other venuees you had in mind.

YES, 100 POSTS!! I've graduated to Racer.

[marcus]

hang on , we seem to have gone onto a schedule and I believe the original question was what are your thoughts on a unification or did I miss something ??

[Flatspot]

Could it possibly be that the owners (who don't run the series) seem to be making a lot of noise lately and mangement is feeling the pressure? Possibly that the media is picking up on the fact that the IRL is morphing into what CART used to be? Some team owner (former drivers) talk out of both sides of their mouths? Maybe it's just that poeple in Richmond like tin-tops and don't like rolling their R's.

Some interesting noises are being heard as of late. Yes?

[mountainstar]

Originally posted by marcus
hang on , we seem to have gone onto a schedule and I believe the original question was what are your thoughts on a unification or did I miss something ??

Agreed. Let's cross one bridge first which is the unification issue.

[mountainstar]

Whether Mr. george is telling the truth or not, it doesn't matter because he's not going to admit it, until a PR story is crafted showing him the hero.

There is also the possibility that Penske IS keeping george out of the loop for several reasons..... Whana guess?

[Amar7605]

With this article and all of the rumors about unification, I get the feeling that the IRL has more internal problems than they are letting on. Things are starting to leak out, looks like.

What do you all think?

[Kicking-back]

Lets hope unification happens as soon as possible.

Purist hit the nail on the head when he said those in charge of the series (both series) need to "grow up"

[Kicking-back]

Anything that leads to unification is welcome.

[Dov]

I'll bet you any money that the IRL would love to have a piece of the two hottest (young) American open wheel drivers in the world today, AJ Allmendinger & Ryan Hunter-Reay!!

[jj2728]

i'm a fan of both the IRL and OWRS because i am a motorsport fan above all.......but i wish that all involved would leave their egos at the door, use some unilateral common sense and DO SOMETHING about merging the 2 series.....at this point all i can see is a downward spiral that does noone any good and will eventually spell the death knell for top flight open wheel racing in north america....

[zerO]

OK, here are some of the reasons why I pointed to this article:

1. With the advent of Penske's renewed push towards "unification" the spotlight has turned in such a way that IRL is being considered as the premier OW series in America and CART/OWRS has been demoted to being "the new kids on the block" - this concept is now apparent in almost all media (not just this Richmond spew).

2. IRListas have finally realized that IRL isn't (and never will be) the once propagated "All American, All Oval" series - and that is just one aspect of the internal turmoil now evident in IRL hierarchy.

3. Thanx to CARTerization of IRL costs are constantly escalating and there is no more room for any Foyts, Cheevers, Hemelgarns, Menards, and other round-roundy lovers - all but 2 original IRL teams have folded... and now, with road racing to be introduced next year, the costs will drastically increase once again ?! - more teams will fold or flee.

4. Add to it the imminent witdrawal of Toyota and Honda and one can easily say that the IRL are in deep kaka - and that is the primary reason why Penske is making that "merger" racket.

But, what really ticks me off is all this crying about lack of American drivers in OW racing - 25% of IRL's grid and 17% in CCWS is hardly a reason for such a complain... it isn't the amount of American drivers that should be highlighted and cried about but the respective series' inability to properly market their product over the last 8+ years resulting in bringing OW racing in America to an all-time low - and the freakin' media isn't helping any ?!

All we can do is cross our fingers that The Three Amigos pull this stunt off successfully and things will get better and better... latest indications are definitely pointing in that direction, but a little better marketing strategy would definitely be helpful - last year there really wasn't any, this year there are some hints, but that isn't enough... and the fact of how the media portrays OW in America nowdays is proof of that ?!

zerO

[BootsOntheSide]

Firstly, the IRL's Richmond race had Hornish, Barron, Carpenter, Al Jr, Ray, Foyt 4 and Rice - that's considerably more than 25% of a 22-car grid. Your CART figure was accurate though, so give yourslef one gold star.

As for teams, Foyt and Cheever are still going strong in the series - running American drivers incidentally. Menard has a pretty good share in Panther's team, as well as the IPS ownership. Not many CART teams from 1996 are still there - only NHR, Forsythe, Coyne (with gaps in his entry history) and Herdez (née Bettenhausen) - teams like PacWest, AAR, Sigma and Hogan ahve all failed. Economcially speaking, runnign an OW team right now isn't easy, but the top teams all did the sums and chose the IRL route.

"The imminent withdrawal of Honda and Toyota" has been happening inside the ehads of some peopel for a long time. There's no evidence to support it - on the contrary they have signed on for 2006 and probably beyond. Even if they did elave, who's to say that would damage the IRL? Their teams are well-funded and would have potential to continue as they are.

[GP Racer]

Hmmm, looking at this esteemed group of posters on this thread, this surely wasn't started here on the IRL forum?

[Flatspot]

GP, You've been vocal in the past about wanting to keep things all oval and I think basically in the original vision of the IRL (please correct me if I'm putting words in your mouth). The wind seems to have shifted some e.g. many non-American drivers, adding road racing, racing overseas, high costs etc. Now we are starting to here noise from the team owners, some of which seems to sound like discontent. What do you make of it? Is TG losing control?

You are right about who seems to be posting on this thread and I'd like to hear your opinion as well as the opinions of the mainstay IRL forum poster on this subject.

[GP Racer]

Goodness, I hate to get into this subject anymore, but since you asked!

Well, I believe change in this series is now unavoidable, simply because of the dire state that CC is finding itself. It is there situation that I believe is bringing change to this series. If CC were still strong, than I think TG would have continued going along somewhat closely with his vision for the IRL.

But it seems that everyone is looking for stability right now, and the Irl seems to be offering abit more. Manufacturers, teams, drivers, sponsors, chassis builders, and television have all claimed there stake and there future, in the IRL, and with that, they will demand, and probably get, some changes. I don't believe that TG has lost control though. The changes will be in small increments, and he will stay in control of his series. To many people say he went back on his vision, but how could he possibly stay true to it, with all of these changes that are happening? It's a good thing, to be able to adjust your vision in life, with changing circumstances.

People have underestimated TG. He has proven to be clever, a good businessman, and a survivor, with skin thick enough to take the abuse. He's earned my respect.

Personally, I no longer want to see re-unification, like I once did. I have come to enjoy this series as it is. A few road courses wouldn't bother me, like the old USAC had, or NASCAR today. But I'm already hearing about an equal split of ovals and road/street courses, an 8 man board, and international races, in other words CART! So why would any IRl fan want reunification? It would be the end for the series, and it would come at a time when so many good things have happened to it.

Ah, who knows what will happen. I think its going to be a long "silly season" again!

[Purist]

It's a bit late for that particular PR flick to help now. Those who know and/or care about know TG didn't make the move, and that he lead the group that broke away from CART. What's he going to do anyway. If he were to try to do something to arrest what Penske is doing, it would raise a stink that no PR machine could ever hope to counteract.

[N I Tram]

I'm happy with the IRL to continue as it is. 3 or 4 road courses would be ideal, maybe half a dozen maximum ina few years. If OWRS are to be successful they need to concentrate on Mexico and Canada primarily, and perhaps branch out further with South America / Africa / Australiasia.

[D.R.T.]

Has TG still got control when his series biggest name is spending time talking unfication to OWRS, and as he aid he's out of the loop.
Even the IRL with its manufacters, teams, sponsors, tv I dont think is viable in the long term in the current climate, just as Champ Car. I think as a good businessman as TG is supposedly, I think this would be playing on his mind.

[zerO]

Originally posted by BootsOntheSide
Firstly, the IRL's Richmond race had Hornish, Barron, Carpenter, Al Jr, Ray, Foyt 4 and Rice - that's considerably more than 25% of a 22-car grid. Your CART figure was accurate though, so give yourslef one gold star.

The actual IRL figures are not important here (I haven't bothered checking the latest line-up, btw) - whether it's 25% or 32% or even 41% it still is a far cry to what the darn series was meant to be -> ie: "All Aerican, All Oval" ?!

While the 17% in CCWS is a very acceptable number since Champ Car is meant to be INTERNATIONAL ?!... that was the reason for my sticking those numbers...

zerO

[Tim Northcutt]

To zer0:

The point was not necessarily to be "All-American" as it was to provide more opportunities for drivers to drive (and yes, a number of those were American) and for people who wanted to own teams to do so and to race in a top-level open series...

Thus, he realy wanted to expand the opportunities to race at the top level for drivers and owners....as opposed to the limited "franchises" offered by the Series that existed at the time....

That was the true point of his approach...and he has done that....

[Down F0rce]

Road courses were also part of the deal all along. The original 1994 press release mentioned them. The first season was supposed to include one road race apparantly.

The IRL ws set up as a oval-based series, not exclusivly oval.

[Kicking-back]

Indeed.

I remember in 1994/95 Autosport running an article about Long Beach having discussions with the IRL.

[JohnSSC]

I think GP Racer made an excellent point about TG when he said that he was willing to adjust the focus of his Series to meet changing conditions.

I am no TG fan, BUT to be successful in business there has to be a focus on the goal and the goal is to satisfy the customer. If conditions were such that TG could continue on doggedly adhering to every word of the intial press release without giving thought to the changing market, then I would truly think him foolish. I may not agree with him, but he has managed to keep the series going.

This is not intended as a slam on the Three Amigos, but if you all recall there was to be no support of teams by OWRS. That was part of their business model. Conditions dictated that they do so, however, and they did. I may not think it a wonderful thing but they adjusted to changing business conditions.

[BootsOntheSide]

Originally posted by zerO
The actual IRL figures are not important here (I haven't bothered checking the latest line-up, btw) - whether it's 25% or 32% or even 41% it still is a far cry to what the darn series was meant to be -> ie: "All Aerican, All Oval" ?!

While the 17% in CCWS is a very acceptable number since Champ Car is meant to be INTERNATIONAL ?!... that was the reason for my sticking those numbers...

zerO

Try telling the audiences who've lost interest in CART voer recent years, the people who flocked to the early oval races in the 70s, or even the 50/50 split with lots of US drivers and only a sprinkling of international stars like Mansell and Emmo, that CART is meant to be international.

Mexico and Canada have only a few races, but as many drivers as the US, even though not all of those are in any way up to the job. You can understand who so many people feel alienated by CART, just as they do by the IRL.

Does anyone ahve figures for how many of the Indy 500's starters have been American, say for 92, 95, 96, 2000 and this year, to get a comparison? I'd bet, thoguh, that there are 100 US drovers who've started the 500 since it became an IRL event but not before, and few of those (perhaps not even Hornish) would've had that chance wer eit not for the IRL. Guys like Simmons, Robby Gordon and Larry Foyt did it this year as a one-off.

[Tim Northcutt]

3. Thanx to CARTerization of IRL costs are constantly escalating and there is no more room for any Foyts, Cheevers, Hemelgarns, Menards, and other round-roundy lovers - all but 2 original IRL teams have folded... and now, with road racing to be introduced next year, the costs will drastically increase once again ?! - more teams will fold or flee.

(Posted by Zer0)


Sorry, zer0, but that point is bogus...

Fact: a new Dallara or Panoz G-Force chassis costs $309,000

Fact: a new Lola chassis costs between $425,000 and $450,000

Fact 2: a lease for an IRL engine is approximately $90,000 per engine, per race....

What does a "Lease", even "at cost"...courtesy of the OWRS subsidies... for a Ford-Cosworth cost? and it is a "Lease" with rebuild costs, etc. per race and they have to have them for a primary plus a back-up at a minimum.

Last figure I heard was in the range of $100,000 to $110,000

But...

If it costs LESS than $90,000, please share that cost with us.....


Otherwise, don't bother...

because unless that engine is at least $10,000 cheaper per race than an IRL powerplant, there is no way that an OWRS team can make up the cost difference between the chassis.....


so don't give me the IRL costs escalating nonsense.....