Speed News: New Effort to Unify the Indy Racing League and Champ Car (Merged again)

[StickShift]

~~~ Sorry, there is incredibly little news on this at the moment, so bare with me ~~~

This was just reported as 'breaking news' on the road-racing edition of Speed News. I'm waiting for it to come up on the Speed website.

Robin Miller described the situation like this:

• Tony George met with CCWS president Dick Eidswick over the past week.
• Robin reported that Dick Eiswick told Kevin Kalkhoven that Tony George practically offered to buy the series.
• When Robin Miller talked to Tony George, George did not deny that he talked to Eidswick, but he did deny that he made an offer to buy the series.
• Tony George has not talked to either Forsythe or Kalkhoven since they bought the series. But suggested if they did, 'things could happen'.
• Kalkhoven, Forsythe, and Gentilozzi in general would be fine if George was a partner, but not if he was in direct control of the sport.
• Mario Andretti has been trying to convince both the IRL and Champ Car to go to a common chassis and engine formula.
• Robin also believes that what he knows at this point is "just the tip of the iceberg".

There will probably be more news on this on Windtunnel tonight, or on the Speed website.

I hope this story holds some water. But realistically, I expect as this story develops, it will spring leaks like a sieve.

[macdaddy]

Obviously, this thread is more-than interesting.

We'll be keeping a close eye on it, especially as fans, but also as moderators because we simply won't allow any bashing of individuals or racing series.

It comes as quite a surprise, though. I wouldn't be surprised if one or more manufacturers have something to do with this. Especially Bridgestone/Firestone, and perhaps even some of the promoters. I don't think that Tony George is doing this of his own freewill, (if in fact this is happening at all).

But I tend to believe the source.

Silly Season will NEVER end at this rate!

[2112]

Mario has been pushing the common formula as a start to reconcilation. Obviously, the window of opportunity has arrived, with decisions for 2007 to be made soon.
If it`s lost, I`m convinced their will be 2 series for years to come, and probably forever. (maybe a good thing if this is finally put to rest)
Then again, how many fans that are left that still care?

[Kicking-back]

The sooner there is one series the better.

The current farce must not be allowed to continue.

[rustyfan]

I think Mario Andretti has a pretty interesting take on this:

"The only answer right now for things to come around, for both sides to find an answer, is for both sides to maintain enough equity in themselves so they can maintain autonomy. Each side has something to offer," he said. "Each side separately does not have enough to be a force in this sport, to be anywhere where they used to be."

Andretti proposes treating the IRL (with its mostly ovals regimen) and Champ Car (mostly street and road courses) like conferences in the NFL. The series would have three to five common races - including Indianapolis - to determine a unified champion and still crown separate champions with points from their own events.

[Kicking-back]

Andretti's idea would muddy the waters even further.

We need a single championship with a balanced schedule of oval and road racing.

[JohnSSC]

I agree with the single schedule, K-B - but at least someone who "knows" is talking sense in that open wheel is broken and needs to be fixed.

[jock25]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Andretti's idea would muddy the waters even further.

But it would at least provide a foundation upon which to re-establish the Indy 500 as the top race in the US and one of the world's greatest sporting spectacles. I would settle for a bumper Indy grid with all IRL and Champ Car drivers and teams than continue to watch as the race struggles to get a decent field.

And perhaps the 3-5 races per season could become a "super-series" that would eventually supersede the IRL and Champ Car and do away with any need to physically get the two sides to join/merge/kiss and make up.

[GP Racer]

Very interesting news indeed. I was glued to Windtunnel last night!

I have to believe that the manufacturers, Bridgestone/Firestone, the teams, Mario, Roger, and other luminaries have to be behind this push to get a deal going. Maybe TG has found somebody he can deal with in Eidswick, because it's plain to see that no deal was coming between him and the 3 Amigos.

Tommy Kendall had a very interesting take on the news. He believes that reunification is not the answer. He doesn't believe that you can go back to the glory days with the old CART like, USAC like formula. What worked 10-20 years ago, will not work today. He says that neither series has been able to market itself properly, or find it's core audience or provide the stability necessary to make open wheel appealing again to a US audience. He said we need to look forward, not backwards.

Valid points IMO. Reunification may not be the panacea for American open wheel racing. Some fans will feel left out of the "new" series, and its no guarantee of being able to draw new fans in. For instance, no IRL fan will want to see a race in China, while no CC fans would want to give up their beloved turbos. There will be alot of compromising to be done.

But there's no doubting something must be done, so let's see what happens...

[Snrub]

I didn't catch the whole WT, but I did catch TK's comments. While he seems to make some valid points, what is the solution? How has any racing really fundimentally changed?

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by Snrub

I didn't catch the whole WT, but I did catch TK's comments. While he seems to make some valid points, what is the solution? How has any racing really fundimentally changed?

I think he was getting at how TV viewers and fans habits have changed over the last decade more than the racing, and that just because CART was so successful through the 80's and early 90's is no guarantee that it would be today even if it was one series. I believe we have to stop fighting the NASCAR way, and just take the best of what they do, and run with it. No sense reinventing the wheel, it's already there!

Stability! NASCAR is the only series out there that is currently giving us that. We have been without that for so long, that OW has forgotten just how important that is! We are always in a constant state of commotion and upheaval. Unless your a hard-core fan, you'll give up!

Stars! being a celebrity driven society, we have to have drivers that are here for the long haul, and we need to make them into stars, like NASCAR does, where there drivers are taught and coached on how to interview and sell. They all give great interviews! Then look at say Hornish or Rice, dullsville!

Marketing! seems like a real no-brainer, but we never seem to do it right! Find our core brand, who we are trying to attract, make a 5 year plan, and stick to it!

Americans! Sorry to say this, but this series simply will not grow without there being more than 2 or 3 home grown drivers! Stop throwing drivers at us that we have never heard of, or never seen, or never watched.

Schedule! it has to be predictable, for instance a race every two weeks, always on Sunday, always at 1 PM, and on the same network! Spreading a small series over 3 or 4 networks is ludicrous. Fans need to know the W's, who, what, when, and where.

Sponsor! We need to find us a NEXTEL to sponsor our series. A real Goliath. Somebody with real cash and real clout to buy us a network like they have with Speed Channel. NEXTEL has now made NASCAR available almost 24/7 now. Amazing!

Attitudes! As OW fans, our attitudes suck! We have the audacity to look down our noses and make fun of NASCAR constantly, even while there killing us in every which way imaginable! Thats no way to attract more fans.

Thats my 2 cents anyway...

[jock25]

KK, GF, PG and TG should all hand over the reigns to GP Racer! The only thing you missed out was "Ego transplants - remove the collectively oversized egos of TG and the 3 amigos".

[sgw2]

Who cares? This is a pipe dream of a small few who don't wish to admit Tony George outlasted them. The sentiment is understandable, has a fair logic to it, but is absurd.

To be honest I think the issue is now moot ... or soon will be once the LBGP officially switches to IRL. (Yes I'm ahead of myself here, but I can think of no other reason to dealy the announcement of next year's race sanctioning unless a switch was almost a done deal). Once LBGP switches the last significant piece of the fued is over.

CCWS is moving off shore more and more anyway, and will continue in that direction. Talks with Chinese, Japanes and other Asia-Pacific venues for new races indicate where the Australia Kalkhoven plans to take that series.

This is much about nothing.

[gttouring]

do not poo poo unification talks... the whole reason these things have happened for about ten years since the split is because nobody truly believes 2 of the basically same series can exist together, everyone sees it as a problem and everyone want a solution that best fits themselves. If CC goes more asian-pacific so will IRL it has Motegi after all. they need to be in the same place as it was and still is/ certtainly can be the openwheel king superseries on the planet, not for sheer technology standpoint or goofy rules like F1 now adays but for incredible racing and cars strong enough to take a bump or two against a wall or other cars, and where the driver certainly must handle the car. the closer spec formula that these series hold surely helps this feature but everyone wants one mighty superseries, say what you will about TG and the 3 but we all think back to the "good ole days" and not the 60's or seventies but a mere 10 years ago... this is not what we want? All eprsonal feeling about these meat heads running the series aside, it is better with the one and EVERYBODY knows it, and after seeing the racing in LBGP and Fontana and Indy and Texas and Laguna and Denver, the world can realize it...but they knew and believed it ask Mansell.
the collective forces of the 2 existing series can likely make headway into Nascar country again, and globally...really it is the American way for an American-based series, United we stand- divided we fall. ahem or get squashed by Nascar...

[trow]

Originally Posted by sgw2

Who cares? This is a pipe dream of a small few who don't wish to admit Tony George outlasted them. The sentiment is understandable, has a fair logic to it, but is absurd.

To be honest I think the issue is now moot ... or soon will be once the LBGP officially switches to IRL. (Yes I'm ahead of myself here, but I can think of no other reason to dealy the announcement of next year's race sanctioning unless a switch was almost a done deal). Once LBGP switches the last significant piece of the fued is over.

CCWS is moving off shore more and more anyway, and will continue in that direction. Talks with Chinese, Japanes and other Asia-Pacific venues for new races indicate where the Australia Kalkhoven plans to take that series.

This is much about nothing.

Yeah, you're probably right. I foresee KK getting out of this soon if they don't get something worked out quick. Money is hurting them terribly. They're trying to keep it together but with no substantial income coming in, they can't really afford to run a series on fumes. There's nothing to merge with other than Tony extending a hand to help quell the bs and get everyone under one roof. In any case if they continue to move overseas what's that gonna do for Americans? F1 is still trying to catch on here. Makes no sense.

[Kicking-back]

Everyone needs to get on side and get the sort of series we all enjoyed pre-split.

16-18 races.

50/50 split between ovals and road/street.

US based + 1 in Australia, 1 or 2 in Mexico and Canada.

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Everyone needs to get on side and get the sort of series we all enjoyed pre-split.

16-18 races.

50/50 split between ovals and road/street.

US based + 1 in Australia, 1 or 2 in Mexico and Canada.

For once your short, quick answers will not work KB.

It's alot more complex than that. There is an awful lot of water under the bridge, and sometimes you just can't go back and pretend that nothing happened. You just can't go back and think it will be 1990 all over again. Alot has changed in the 15 or so years since CART was popular.

The most important change is NASCAR's tremendous growth since then, which hasn't left much room for anything else. They have the drivers, and the venues that Americans want to see. They are heavily sponsored, heavily televised, with full stands at every event, and they have the behemouth NEXTEL dumping truckloads of cash on them. They even have there own network in Speed Channel!

Just going back to one series is no guarantee that the glory days are back. Many fans may feel polarized as there favorite series are changed, or gone, and may leave for NASCAR, and there is no guarantee that you will pick-up new ones to replace them...

Originally Posted by Jock25

KK, GF, PG and TG should all hand over the reigns to GP Racer! The only thing you missed out was "Ego transplants - remove the collectively oversized egos of TG and the 3 amigos".

Thanks, but I don't think the CC crowd would be to happy with that!

[Kicking-back]

GP Racer - my view is that simple, bold, thinking is what's required.

The past ten years have happened, but they are not doing anyone any good.

By adopting a clear strategy, like that I have suggested, then marketing the hell out of it and getting everyone behind it, that situation will be better than the mess we have now, which would at least be a start.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

Everyone needs to get on side and get the sort of series we all enjoyed pre-split.

16-18 races.

50/50 split between ovals and road/street.

US based + 1 in Australia, 1 or 2 in Mexico and Canada.

16-18 races? I'd prefer 22, and, lookie here, I just happen to have a fantasy schedule handy (that I posted earlier in another thread)

My ideal open-wheel schedule:

01. St. Petersburg
02. Homestead
03. Interlagos
04. Indianapolis (500 miler)
05. Laguna Seca
06. Portland
07. Michigan (500 miler)
08. Sears Point
09. Brands Hatch GP
10. Spa-Francorchamps
11. Milwaukee
12. Pocono (500 miler)
13. Road America
14. Toronto
15. Montreal
16. Texas
17. Cleveland
18. Watkins Glen
19. Las Vegas
20. Mexico City
21. Surfers' Paradise
22. Fontana (500 miler)


- 15 races in the US, 2 in Canada, 2 in Central/South America, 2 in Europe and 1 in Australia.

- 10 permanent road courses, 8 ovals, 3 street circuits and 1 temporary road course.


I can dream, right?

Anyway, as it is now I'd prefer Mario's idea because a single unified series would never include even half of the tracks above (ok, so six of them aren't raced at by either series these days either, but at least there is a very real chance of Road America and Laguna Seca being added to either schedule in the future), with Texas, Watkins Glen and Sears Point most likely being just three of those not making the cut.

Just thinking about Watkins Glen in particular makes me all warm and fuzzy inside. Champ Car didn't even try, writing it off before even looking at it. The IRL, on the other hand, was committed to making it work, and now they are set to fulfill a dream of mine, to finally see top open-wheelers race at the Glen again. Can't bloody wait.

Sears Point should be great too, with its elevation changes and so on.

And what does Champ Car have? Long Beach (sorry, I simply can not force myself to like the current layout...) and Fundidora Park (slow, flat and uninspiring.. ugh)... blech.

They deserve major cred for Las Vegas though - I saw a recap of the '04 race the other day and those last ten laps were bloody awesome. I guarantee you that September 24th is marked with a big, fat marker on my calender, as are June 4th & 19th when the real Champ Car season starts. Edmonton should be a good addition to the schedule as well.

Anyway, sorry for wandering off - and getting lost in the process, taking hours to find my way back - there...

[jhansen]

Quote from GP Racer: "Americans! Sorry to say this, but this series simply will not grow without there being more than 2 or 3 home grown drivers! Stop throwing drivers at us that we have never heard of, or never seen, or never watched."


Still disagree with you on this point. Not knowing where a driver came from is not the issue. NASCAR used to be just about drivers from the south and hick fans. But the sport evolved and now yuppees follow it and even "outsiders" have raced in the series. But NASCAR also benefits from a cult like following.

NASCAR's true edge is that it's a marketing machine. And in terms of marketing, you have to remember, NASCAR has been building their product for a long time. The product has not changed continuously either and has enjoyed a lot of stability. NASCAR really hit its stride in the mid-90's. During the same period open wheel racing self distructed and has never seriously threatened. It continues to flounder around with no purpose, no plan, and no structure.

Something has to be done, because both CCWS and the IRL are making themselves irrelevent. Why not give reunification a try?

[mac]

Originally Posted by GP Racer

It's alot more complex than that. There is an awful lot of water under the bridge, and sometimes you just can't go back and pretend that nothing happened. You just can't go back and think it will be 1990 all over again. Alot has changed in the 15 or so years since CART was popular.

Bingo! We have a winner!

This sort of backward, let's-worry-about-the-past attitude is EXACTLY what is holding OW back!

"Oh, but TG said this, the amigos did that, CART should have done this, NASCAR does this ......"

Get over it!!!!

It's done, it happened, it's over.

Who cares whose fault it is - NOTHING can be done about it now. As they say in Australia .... it's fish and chip wrapping.

Just get it together and look forward - try a little thing called "compromise".

[GP Racer]

Originally Posted by Kicking-back

GP Racer - my view is that simple, bold, thinking is what's required.

The past ten years have happened, but they are not doing anyone any good.

By adopting a clear strategy, like that I have suggested, then marketing the hell out of it and getting everyone behind it, that situation will be better than the mess we have now, which would at least be a start.

Thats hardly bold thinking IMO KB. We've been there, done that. What worked then is unlikely to work today. Like mac said to, we must look forward, and we must be daring.

Bold thinking is what NASCAR has done over the last 10-15 years while open wheel floundered. They took huge risks, and have taken what was essentially a regional series and made it into a true Goliath in not only the racing world, but the general sports world. They modelled themselves after the #1 sport in America, the National Football League, and they made it work. They are now the #2 sport here in the States. They didn't reinvent the wheel, they just used the one that somebody else made.

Thats what we need in OW. No sense in doing what has already failed. Take the best of the NASCAR formula, and copy it. Just flat out copy it, and even try and make it better, because it is a known success. We know it works.

As for American drivers jhansen, do you really think that NASCAR would be what it is today, if there were 35 foreign drivers, and 7 Americans? Of course not, but thats basically the percentage your asking IndyCar racing to be successful with. I hate to get into that argument, because I like most of the current grid, foreign and American, but the series simply cannot grow without a feeder system, where fans can get to know and follow a drivers career. NASCAR knows that, thats why they have Karts, ARCA, Hooters, Truck, and a host of Bush series, and most all of there drivers are better known than the top open wheelers! Sad!

[trow]

Originally Posted by jhansen

Still disagree with you on this point. Not knowing where a driver came from is not the issue. NASCAR used to be just about drivers from the south and hick fans. But the sport evolved and now yuppees follow it and even "outsiders" have raced in the series. But NASCAR also benefits from a cult like following.

NASCAR's true edge is that it's a marketing machine. And in terms of marketing, you have to remember, NASCAR has been building their product for a long time. The product has not changed continuously either and has enjoyed a lot of stability. NASCAR really hit its stride in the mid-90's. During the same period open wheel racing self distructed and has never seriously threatened. It continues to flounder around with no purpose, no plan, and no structure.

Something has to be done, because both CCWS and the IRL are making themselves irrelevent. Why not give reunification a try?

What does unification mean?

[JohnSSC]

Well, here goes:

1) I agree in principal with GP.

2) Reunification is not panacea.

3) Reunification is the first step to regaining focus.

4) First order of business is to think outside the box for a Nextel-type Series partner - like Starbucks.

5) Make the ladder series events mean something. As I've suggested before the winner of the Atlantics/IPS championship gets a ride in the big show with a solid team.

6) Promote the living snot out the Series.

7) Keep the technical specs just tight enough that ingenuity and ambition are not legislated out - a lot of folks love to see what the "creative rules interpretation" of the week will be.

8) Did I say promote the snot out of the Series?

9) And for goodness sake get some local talent: American, Canadian and Mexican/South American.

10) Can anyone say: Championship of the Americas?

[Snrub]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

And what does Champ Car have? Long Beach (sorry, I simply can not force myself to like the current layout...) and Fundidora Park (slow, flat and uninspiring.. ugh)... blech.

There are lots of good CC tracks and the worst one (Vancouver) is no longer on the schedule. Fundidora park may not be the best layout, but it actually produced a very good race behind the front - granted, we didn't get to see it very well! Despite not being the best layout, LB did produce a good race this year.

They deserve major cred for Las Vegas though - I saw a recap of the '04 race the other day and those last ten laps were bloody awesome.

?!? Worst race of the season and worst CC race I've ever seen. (okay Surfer's 02 was probably worse)