The merged Merger thread (again !!)

[Seoigh]

Originally Posted by Fogelhund

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dl.../60221006/1001

Not much to say about this, other than a merger can only be positive. Will it happen, who knows, but it is better to know what is happening, than not.

Autoweek is fairly cautious in validating such rumors, but their points regarding the current relationship between principals seems to lend credence to the validity of a rapproachment. One need only look at the present state of the Indy 500 for justification. A very thorny issue mentioned in the article was a suggestion that both series may choose to combine their 'strongest events', which, as others mention, could prove quite an obstacle. As always though, it would be great if it came about - '07 might be too soon to put the pieces together.

[Tim Northcutt]

I see one potential problem on the horizon concerning venues:

One of the IRL's strongest events in attendance is Texas Motor Speedway (they usually have somewhere between 90,000-100,000 people there for a mid-June night race

Champ Car couldn't run there a few years ago because of the danger involving high g-forces for the drivers.

[drdisque]

The texas thing is a relatively minor issue

if they did go back, they would be using the new Panoz chassis, not the Lolas and Reynards that were incurring the problems.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by Tim Northcutt

I see one potential problem on the horizon concerning venues:

One of the IRL's strongest events in attendance is Texas Motor Speedway (they usually have somewhere between 90,000-100,000 people there for a mid-June night race

Champ Car couldn't run there a few years ago because of the danger involving high g-forces for the drivers.

I seem to recall something recently from the dude that runs TMS that the IRL would not run there in 2007.

[JohnSSC]

Good points about the promoters for CC, but keep in mind that a number of the races are owned and/or promoted either by KK/GF or a close associate.

Further, taking San Jose as an example, there is some doubt as to whether the City Council there has the political support to honor the most recent decision to pay the promoter the $5 million that has been requested over the next two years. The council did not follow the appropriate procedural process before voting on it (issues involving expenditures have a particular pro-forma that must be followed). As SJ is on the brink of bankruptcy, there may be changes coming there as funds for this (and other programs) are re-directed to more basic services.

I would be extremely surprised if, given the fact that CC is coming out of a bankruptcy, that the agreements with venues/promoters do not have a clause in the boilerplate language regarding an "out" should CC merge or go out of business.

Don't forget that Ford no longer owns Cosworth and Ford also is losing mega-gleeks, planning on dumping 30,000 jobs world-wide. I think that Ford would be happy to go along with anything that gives them more exposure for more or less what they have into it now dollar-wise.

[climb]

...mmh in the meantime days/weeks go by and nothing more concrete is coming out.... more and more unlikely to see an unification by 2007

[paul-collins]

And now for the completely irresponsible rumour-mongering: evidently Brock Yates has suggested that IMS is for sale (Car and Driver, April 2006 issue).

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

And now for the completely irresponsible rumour-mongering: evidently Brock Yates has suggested that IMS is for sale (Car and Driver, April 2006 issue).

There's some rumors going around about golf carts being repossessed and big staff layoffs at IMS along with the irl having to fund some of the cars for 2006. I think we all knew the day of reckoning was coming.

There is no need for a merger because the irl is a dying dead dog of a series that has racked up at least $250 million in losses over 10 years. The engine bux of $200 million a year in free engines and cash are gone, Marlboro is gone soon($22 million a year), target is about to walk, pioneer is gone, irl teams are having auctions left and right, a bunch of races in key markets are gone, texas probably gone after this year, the irl has no races other than maybe indy that could be remotely described as "events" worth attending for 3 days, the danica effect is short lived once people realized what a stuck up brat she is, etc. There is nothing new and exciting about the series at all, nor are there any potential suitors out there on the horizon willing to continue to subsidize it.

I'm offering to chip in for cyanide capsules and pistols for the last few remaining in the IMS bunker when the end times come.

[JohnSSC]

Mountainstar: Can you provide a link regarding layoffs and repossessions at IMS? The Indy Star stays pretty on top of events at IMS and I have not seen anything there (but being a casual reader I could easily have missed it).

Certainly CC has suffered it's own share of layoffs as the Series right-sizes itself and it seems that the balance sheet is not tilted towards profit as of yet.

I think both Series have compelling reasons to consider a merger. I am curious to see where this goes. Common ground may or may not be found. However, talk of cyanide and guns tends to cloud the original subject matter, imho.

[Tim Northcutt]

There hasn't been anything in the Indy Star about this, John....

But I have not picked up the morning newspaper.

But if there were repossessions and such going on, it would have hit the news here...or Robin Miller would have been on that story like stink on a turd....

I'll believe this when I see it...

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I'm offering to chip in for cyanide capsules and pistols for the last few remaining in the IMS bunker when the end times come.

So you're actually hoping several people are going to kill themselves. That's nice.

It's quite sad to see someone filled with so much bitterness and hatred over something as, when it comes down to it, trivial as a sport.

[jhansen]

While I agree that a link to Mountainstar's claim would be nice, that certainly is not the part of his post that got my attention.

I don't know what this series has going for it at this point. It’s probably fair to say that the original goals of the series are not being met anymore. The IRL has not effectively marketed its product during its 10-year run. The upcoming season sees a drastic reduction in the schedule. The series as a whole hardly has any relevance in its home country. Does the premier race even have any relevance anymore? It wouldn’t surprise me if the 400 mile race at the Brickyard will soon surpass the 500 mile race (if it hasn’t already).

Perhaps the IRL will see a very competitive season this year due to the one engine formula. That surely is a positive. But will anyone be watching?

Neither series holds any interest for me at this stage. A merger might get me interested again. Maybe…

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by rustyfan

So you're actually hoping several people are going to kill themselves. That's nice.

It's quite sad to see someone filled with so much bitterness and hatred over something as, when it comes down to it, trivial as a sport.

I'm obviously just kidding rusty.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Mountainstar: Can you provide a link regarding layoffs and repossessions at IMS? The Indy Star stays pretty on top of events at IMS and I have not seen anything there (but being a casual reader I could easily have missed it).

Certainly CC has suffered it's own share of layoffs as the Series right-sizes itself and it seems that the balance sheet is not tilted towards profit as of yet.

I think both Series have compelling reasons to consider a merger. I am curious to see where this goes. Common ground may or may not be found. However, talk of cyanide and guns tends to cloud the original subject matter, imho.

Nope but that is the rumor.

I seem to remember Kalkoven saying in late 2004 that champcar would be in the black by mid 2005.

[marcus]

Gee way to stick the knife in Mountainstar

This is one reason why we didnt want to open the merger debate again , I believe you have some great things to say but in future could you please say them a bit nicer , that kind of stuff isnt really what either series need.

[rustyfan]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I'm obviously just kidding rusty.

Obviously.

[stradlin21]

I'd love to see a unification of the two series on a mix of circuits, speedways, superspeedways and a street course.

With the quality of driver in the series it would easily rival F1

[indycool]

Marcus, I agree with your point, but I really don't think mountainstar has any great things to say about the IRL in any way, nor do any of his wild rumors suggest that he knows anything about the IRL or IMS, but just reflect his hatred of them.

If IMS/IRL is in trouble over golf carts, why would they be spending millions to buy up land south of the Speedway for additional parking and helping to fund a racing theme in the landscaping of the area east of the Speedway along Crawfordsville Road similar to what's west of the Speedway? The recent affair at the Smithsonian....the continued improvements at the track....the recent hirings of additional marketing staff....the recent expansion of office space at the shopping center (which it also owns) across the street from the Speedway to handle its additional activities.

Preposterous.

[okeefe]

I don't think mountainstar meant any wrong - and in my opinion both series themselves are guilty of staging this sport we all like as a civil war between themselves. We each like the series we each like best, that's simply preference in my opinion and our right to do, not hate or violence. Let's all remember firstly that we all have the common denominator of liking the sport enough to talk about it and follow it.
In watching some of the politics of the two series, I have to say I believe that they need each other.
It seems to me that the "rumours" from both series also come at convenient times which is quite similar to war and political propaganda. A rumour about finances of one; at the same time the other is announcing a driver which may erupt contraversy, etc.
It's Friday, the weekend's coming, let's all remember we are here because we like open wheel racing no matter what the future holds. Personally, I think many of these rumours are because a merger is coming. I think the series owners have to justify the fight as well as be seen as heroes about any such merger. What better way to do that than these rumours?

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by indycool

If IMS/IRL is in trouble over golf carts, why would they be spending millions to buy up land south of the Speedway for additional parking and helping to fund a racing theme in the landscaping of the area east of the Speedway along Crawfordsville Road similar to what's west of the Speedway? The recent affair at the Smithsonian....the continued improvements at the track....the recent hirings of additional marketing staff....the recent expansion of office space at the shopping center (which it also owns) across the street from the Speedway to handle its additional activities.

Preposterous.

I will probably e censured, but here goes,

Look at the facts. Why would indy need more parking, when they cannot fill the seats thay have?

The improvements have not been for the 500, but the F1 race.

Everyone,(except you, it seems), is aware that the 500 is in a tailspin, and even tg is, if you take these reports as credible, worried about the future of the 500, and the irl. Why else would he even be entertaining the notion of a merger?

[marcus]

thats a reasonable statement Ronbo.

I also must say Im not singling Mountainstar out just a gentle reminder about macdaddy's first post wouldnt go astray before we type

[indycool]

Well, Ronbo, here're some answers:

1. Indy needs more parking because they have taken much of it out of the infield with four holes of a golf course, a lake, an F1 course, more hospitality tents and a catering facility. The supposed drop in attendance for the "500" and/or the Brickyard 400 is minimal, contrary to what you might like to believe.

2. The improvements have been for the SPEEDWAY? Each year, in a rotation, they upgrade grandstands that are used for all three races there. They use the brand-new nine-story pagoda for all three races there. They use the new four-story media center (which I'm told was on the drawing board long before the F1 race) for all three races there.

3. EVERYONE thinks the "500" is in a "tailspin?" Pretty strong statement that you can't possibly back up. As for TG contemplating merger, where has he said that he is? Where has KK said that HE is? Both, plus Barnhart and Nation, have denied that any merger talks are taking place. Any of them might be "entertaining the notion," but who asked who to go skiing hasn't been answered.

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by indycool

Well, Ronbo, here're some answers:

1. Indy needs more parking because they have taken much of it out of the infield with four holes of a golf course, a lake, an F1 course, more hospitality tents and a catering facility. The supposed drop in attendance for the "500" and/or the Brickyard 400 is minimal, contrary to what you might like to believe.

2. The improvements have been for the SPEEDWAY? Each year, in a rotation, they upgrade grandstands that are used for all three races there. They use the brand-new nine-story pagoda for all three races there. They use the new four-story media center (which I'm told was on the drawing board long before the F1 race) for all three races there.

3. EVERYONE thinks the "500" is in a "tailspin?" Pretty strong statement that you can't possibly back up. As for TG contemplating merger, where has he said that he is? Where has KK said that HE is? Both, plus Barnhart and Nation, have denied that any merger talks are taking place. Any of them might be "entertaining the notion," but who asked who to go skiing hasn't been answered.

1. If you want to believe that there is no drop in attendance for the 500, that is your perogitive. I am fully aware that the 500 does not announce attendance figures, and never has, but why is it that ten years ago, getting a ticket to Indy was like getting a ticket to the SuperBowl? Now they give them away when you buy a hot dog? I remember last year, there were all sorts of giveaways for the 500. Last year I checked and I could still buy blocks of 100 tickets for the 500. Ten years ago, they actually had what was known as bump day. Way more cars than they had places on the grid. Last year, they had one bump, and that was just for show. This year, if you believe the reports from RM, tg will be funding as many as 10 cars just to get close to 33. tg said it himself, 33 is only a number. That should tell you something.

2. I would grant you that the improvments are for all three races, especially nascar, and F1, and the 500 is the now the third race at that track. So if they are tearing out parking, then it would be reasonable to replace it. Nascar does draw a lot of fans.

3. Both tg and nation have denied merger talks. They also denied the were trying to buy CART. They denied they were trying to buy Long Beach. They denied trying to negtiate a race in Portland, etc...............I could go on about the denials, but you get my drift.
Every one of THOSE denials were true at the time of the denials.
If a person knowingly says something that they know not to be true, that makes them a lie.
So for them to deny something, it should tell you that it is probably true.
JMO

[indycool]

Ronbo, guess there's a reason you're a rookie here.

1. The third-turn grandstand has not been full the past two years for the "500." It has been CLOSE to full. The Carb Day crowd last year when it was moved to Friday was probably double the previous year. I know of no tickets given away for buying a hot dog. If you have a link for that, please enlighten us. I have not heard RM or anyone else claim TG will be funding 10 cars at Indy. If you have a credible link for that (please remember that RM is on the CC payroll), please enlighten us.

2. The "500" is not, and will never be, the "third race" at IMS. Its attendance is still more than both other races. In case you wonder how it's more than the Brickyard 400, it's because there is no GA for the Brickyard 400. F1 draws about a third of what the "500" does. And the "500" buildup and race lasts 22 days. The others are weekend events.

3. TG and Nation denied merger talks. So did KK. They denied trying to buy CART WHEN it was a stock buyout. They didn't. They didn't deny attempting to buy some CART assets when it turned into a bankruptcy because they submitted a bid. Big difference between a stock buyout and a bankruptcy. They didn't deny "having an interest" in Portland at one point. The impetus for that was a Portland promoter trying to matchmake the IRL and the City of Portland. It was NOT the IRL. They denied trying to buy Long Beach. They told the truth. They presented a proposal to Dover to SANCTION Long Beach.

Next....

[Ronbo]

Originally Posted by indycool

Ronbo, guess there's a reason you're a rookie here.

1. The third-turn grandstand has not been full the past two years for the "500." It has been CLOSE to full. The Carb Day crowd last year when it was moved to Friday was probably double the previous year. I know of no tickets given away for buying a hot dog. If you have a link for that, please enlighten us. I have not heard RM or anyone else claim TG will be funding 10 cars at Indy. If you have a credible link for that (please remember that RM is on the CC payroll), please enlighten us.

2. The "500" is not, and will never be, the "third race" at IMS. Its attendance is still more than both other races. In case you wonder how it's more than the Brickyard 400, it's because there is no GA for the Brickyard 400. F1 draws about a third of what the "500" does. And the "500" buildup and race lasts 22 days. The others are weekend events.

3. TG and Nation denied merger talks. So did KK. They denied trying to buy CART WHEN it was a stock buyout. They didn't. They didn't deny attempting to buy some CART assets when it turned into a bankruptcy because they submitted a bid. Big difference between a stock buyout and a bankruptcy. They didn't deny "having an interest" in Portland at one point. The impetus for that was a Portland promoter trying to matchmake the IRL and the City of Portland. It was NOT the IRL. They denied trying to buy Long Beach. They told the truth. They presented a proposal to Dover to SANCTION Long Beach.

Next....

Here is the link for Robin's article.

http://www.speedtv.com/commentary/22430/

You say that RM is on the CC payroll? Link please?

You say that carb day numbers were doubled? From what? What is double of nothing? Link please!

KK did not deny merger talks. He said to leave them alone. Link please!

Your assesment of the CART buyout is just wrong. tg said that he would not attempt to purchase CART, and then he did just that. I never mentioned anything about a stock buyout, because there never was one. Link please?

As for the Portland race, the irl hired Jacobson promotions to get that race from CC. I personally talked to the promoter and the staff of Global Events, who stated that. The mayor of Portland was ousted for that little indescretion. As for Long Beach? Please check your facts. the irl was trying to buy the same thing that CC was in negotiations for and eventually purchased. They were trying get CC's race out from under CC. The fact that the irl used middle men in both cases, while denying it at the same time, does not fly in any cricles. They have time and time again, denied things that were actually true.

Look, I really have no beef with you. It does not matter to me that you like tg and the irl. Good for you. But defending tg and his actions, by pretending they didn't happen, just does not make sense. I will be the first one to say how the old guard at CART, screwed up big time. They let things get out of hand, and the way the business was run, it's no wonder it failed. If you were to ask me about attendance at Portland, I would tell you that it is a shadow of it's heyday. Attendance is about half of what it was just 5 years ago. Yes it is growing, and it does need some work, but you will never hear me deny that anything is wrong.