The merged Merger thread (again !!) - Page 3

indycool · 11 Mar 2006, 22:03 (Ref:1543966)

Ronbo,
1. You don't need a link to read Robin's stories on the CC website. He doesn't write for free.

2. The Carb Day numbers are IMO from watching from the year before. There were a lot of people there. Were you? Either year?

3. KK said they went skiing and drank a little wine and yes, he said to leave him and TG alone. Read any story on the subject. He said they were socializing.

4. Your assessment of the CART buyout is just wrong. CART hired Bear, Stearns to seek potential buyers of the company. Bear, Stearns contacted TG, France, Ecclestone and a whole bunch of others. They all were not interested. The bid in August of '03 was made by The amigos under the banner of a company called Open Wheel Racing Series, which they formed. A stockholder vote to sell CART to OWRS was scheduled for December of '03. Shortly before that, CART filed bankruptcy papers. The vote was canceled to sell CART. A bankruptcy hearing was scheduled for January '04. TG bid $13 million on the contracts with promoters at Long Beach, Toronto and Mexico City. OWRS bif $3.1 million on the whole shebang. OWRS got the bid because it picked up potential liabilities and the holding CART company told the court it would forgive $60 million in loans to the bankrupt CART company if OWRS got the bid. OWRS got the bid. But TG NEVER tried to buy all of CART under EITHER set of circumstances.

5. The IRL did NOT hire Jacobson Promotions. Jacobson Promotions was trying to put something together with the city and the IRL at the same time. It failed to put anything together with either one. You can talk to Mike Nealy all you want, but the IRL did NOT hire Jacobson. Jacobson was trying to get in bed with the IRL.

6. The IRL did NOT try to buy Long Beach. The IRL proposed a sanction agreement to Dover for Long Beach. Dover used that as a weapon to force KK to buy it to keep it away from the IRL and KK paid $5 million more than the race was worth internally to Dover to keep it. Similar thing happened to Molson in Toronto. There was no "middleman" in the Portland thing and there certainly wasn't a middlemanin the Long Beach deal because the IRL wasn't even trying to buy it.

Sorry you don't understand history properly.

Ronbo · 12 Mar 2006, 01:44 (Ref:1544063)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

Ronbo,
1. You don't need a link to read Robin's stories on the CC website. He doesn't write for free.

The link was to SPEED, so obviously he is paid by SPEED, but you still have not answered the original thought. You remember, the one about the 500 being in a tail spin. About tg funding 10 cars? You asked for the link, and then state that RM is paid by CC. Does that imply that he is not telling the truth? But when he says something negative about CC, then he is?

2. The Carb Day numbers are IMO from watching from the year before. There were a lot of people there. Were you? Either year?

No I wasn't there, but I was not on the Titanic either. I don't think that it is relevant. You still have not told me how many people were there.
3. KK said they went skiing and drank a little wine and yes, he said to leave him and TG alone. Read any story on the subject. He said they were socializing.

Do you really believe that KK wants to be left alone, so that he could socialize? Here is what KK actually said: "If people truly care about open wheel racing in America, then please go away and leave Tony and I alone."

So they can have hot toddies??

4. Your assessment of the CART buyout is just wrong. CART hired Bear, Stearns to seek potential buyers of the company. Bear, Stearns contacted TG, France, Ecclestone and a whole bunch of others. They all were not interested. The bid in August of '03 was made by The amigos under the banner of a company called Open Wheel Racing Series, which they formed. A stockholder vote to sell CART to OWRS was scheduled for December of '03. Shortly before that, CART filed bankruptcy papers. The vote was canceled to sell CART. A bankruptcy hearing was scheduled for January '04. TG bid $13 million on the contracts with promoters at Long Beach, Toronto and Mexico City. OWRS bif $3.1 million on the whole shebang. OWRS got the bid because it picked up potential liabilities and the holding CART company told the court it would forgive $60 million in loans to the bankrupt CART company if OWRS got the bid. OWRS got the bid. But TG NEVER tried to buy all of CART under EITHER set of circumstances.

You can try to talk your way out, but tg did try to buy CART, while saying that he was not. He said very clearly that he was not interested at all, but even you claim that he did try to buy what was left in the bk.
5. The IRL did NOT hire Jacobson Promotions. Jacobson Promotions was trying to put something together with the city and the IRL at the same time. It failed to put anything together with either one. You can talk to Mike Nealy all you want, but the IRL did NOT hire Jacobson. Jacobson was trying to get in bed with the IRL.

The irl told Jacobson to go ahead, and with the middleman, the irl could deny it with anything that went wrong, and that is what you are doing now. Thats ok.
6. The IRL did NOT try to buy Long Beach. The IRL proposed a sanction agreement to Dover for Long Beach. Dover used that as a weapon to force KK to buy it to keep it away from the IRL and KK paid $5 million more than the race was worth internally to Dover to keep it. Similar thing happened to Molson in Toronto. There was no "middleman" in the Portland thing and there certainly wasn't a middlemanin the Long Beach deal because the IRL wasn't even trying to buy it.

Please read this story It is about the irl thru Barry green, the middleman, trying to buy Long Beach. You can call it what ever you want, but thats what happened.
http://www.speedtv.com/articles/auto/champcar/17135/

Here is a good one,
"We,(KK), were negotiating in good faith when this missle comes flying through the air. It was an unsolicited offer to buy Long Beach so Dover had to get an investment banker and start the process."
And another,
It's been rumored that Barry Green, who promoted last month's initial IRL street show at St. Petersburg, Fla., was the other bidder -- acting as proxy for George.

The other bidder? I may be new here, but that sounds like tg was actually trying to buy LB? That would be why he placed a bid. HMMMM, makes you think?

You are right, no middlemen! I don't have a clue where I even got that idea?

Sorry you don't understand history properly.

Oh I understand plenty. I just don't have blinders on.
I may have been born during the day, just not yesterday!
And you still have not even addressed any of the original topics.

Have a Great Day!

marcus · 12 Mar 2006, 03:56 (Ref:1544089)

and now this is just turning into an argument.

if this continues I will gladly close all unification threads and be done with it AGAIN.

indycool · 12 Mar 2006, 12:03 (Ref:1545035)

Well, Marcus, go ahead. Think that's best rather than even attempting to respond any more to great evil conspiracy theories and far-off-target allegations.

stradlin21 · 12 Mar 2006, 14:53 (Ref:1545185)

Quote:

Originally Posted by marcus

and now this is just turning into an argument.

if this continues I will gladly close all unification threads and be done with it AGAIN.

It's a discussion, views are going to be different!

Nobody has become abusive in the slightest

If that is your attitude then why not close the whole thing down

JohnSSC · 12 Mar 2006, 17:44 (Ref:1545303)

I second the emotion regarding closing the thread. I am tired of the theories, etc as it all has been covered extensively numerous times before. Best to close this until such time as more concrete information surfaces that is specific to a potential merger and perhaps remind the newer members as to the faqs particular to this forum.

Obviously the primary parties are playing this close to the vest. Until they speak specifically there really is no more that can be added by us.

Ronbo · 12 Mar 2006, 18:54 (Ref:1545337)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

Well, Marcus, go ahead. Think that's best rather than even attempting to respond any more to great evil conspiracy theories and far-off-target allegations.

You asked for the info. I was only responding to your questions. But to call them conspiracy theories and far off allegations, is just inaccurate and a dishonest assesment of the situation. You believe what you want. Don't let the truth get in the way of that.

But thats ok, and I do understand where you are coming from.

Have a Great day!

indycool · 13 Mar 2006, 11:51 (Ref:1547035)

Okay, if I can't get out of it:

1. Your link was to Speed. Robin is also paid to write on CC's website. He is one of the so-called "Gang of Four" former journalists that are paid staff writers for CC, yet pass themselves off as continuing journalists on other sites.

2. I have no idea how many people were there. That is just judgment based on being there both years and viewing a smaller crowd and a bigger crowd with two eyes.

3. KK said there's no deal. TG said there's no deal. Nation said there's no deal. Barnhart said there's no negotiations. No one mentioned any detailsof any discussions. My take is they're starting to get to know each other and that's a good thing for those who prefer one series. But there's absolutely no indication that any negotiations have begun.

4. Again, because you apparently can't read: TG was NOT interested in buying CART as a stock buyout and made no bid to do so. When it became a bankruptcy auction instead of a stock buyout, there were a few pieces of CART that he bid on. I deny trying to buy the corner grocery store, but if they have a sale when they go bankrupt, I might take 'em up on some of the going-out-of-business specials.

5. Jacobson, in the form of one of its employees, Larry Blackmer, was the instigator of the deal, not the IRL.

6. Read the quote from Barry Green. He doesn't say who his partner was in a bid. He is partnered with a group called Stellar Communications in St. Petersburg. I have little doubt that is the partner he was referring to here. "Robin Rumors" about anything to do with the IRL are clouded by his CC paycheck.

climb · 13 Mar 2006, 12:21 (Ref:1547066)

agree 100% indycool

marcus · 13 Mar 2006, 17:57 (Ref:1547306)

ummm well what can I say.

Ten tenths does NOT want to go down this road , if you want to take it further then i suggest either by PM or another forum , but we here are sick of it.

the end result is one series WILL have to die before the other series becomes the dominant species.

we here at Ten tenths have travelled down this road so MANY times before and sadly thats why we have 2 seperate forums because YOU as fans cannot agree on anything.

Im not blaming anyone nor have I issued any warnings but simply put IT'S OVER , until further information comes to hand ALL merger talks are forbidden on this forum (as well as the champcar forum) its done its dusted now lets get on with 2006 and MAY THE BEST SERIES WIN !!!!!!!!!!!!!!

P.S If you have any problems with this assesment then feel free to PM me with your personal opinions if you get no satisfaction from myself then take it up with the website administrators.

Im over it I just work here

marcus · 23 Mar 2006, 06:27 (Ref:1558055)

well I have recieved a PM and I am willing to let this be open again.

lets see how we go shall we

rustyfan · 23 Mar 2006, 08:59 (Ref:1558121)

I like the fact that they both think a fresh start is needed, in terms of equipment etc.

It certainly won't happen next year, but from reading this latest article I'd say there is a small chance, at least, we'll see a merger in perhaps three, four years.

climb · 23 Mar 2006, 10:25 (Ref:1558259)

Yes, more probably.

They may prefer to wait till the currents contracts have reached their deadline.

mountainstar · 24 Mar 2006, 02:53 (Ref:1559211)

Still there is nothing to report on except that talks are going on. There is nothing to chew on yet.

indycool · 24 Mar 2006, 04:06 (Ref:1559258)

Hey, mountainstar, we agree on one!

Both KK and TG have said that it isn't imminent.

indycool · 25 Mar 2006, 13:39 (Ref:1560353)

http://www.speedtv.com/articles/indycar/auto/22730/

Ronbo · 25 Mar 2006, 15:41 (Ref:1560391)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ronbo

You asked for the info. I was only responding to your questions. But to call them conspiracy theories and far off allegations, is just inaccurate and a dishonest assesment of the situation. You believe what you want. Don't let the truth get in the way of that.

But thats ok, and I do understand where you are coming from.

Have a Great day!

Indycool, do you still believe these are conspiracy theorieis, and far off allegations?

So tell me, was tg lying then or is he lying now? He previously denied having any discussions, only to admit to having them.
Just like everything else that has his fingerprints on it.
Just curious.
And don't even try to convince anyone that they JUST started the talks, after it was reported by Autoweek. It won't work. Both sides agree that the talks have been ongoing since they met in Paris. Before the Autoweek article.

indycool · 25 Mar 2006, 15:58 (Ref:1560398)

H3ll, Ronbo, I had to look back at the thread to see what we were even arguing about back then.

I stand by what I had to say back then.

As far as people "lying," that's baloney. Talking about it is one thing. Merger discussions or negotiations are another. Back in Paris was probably the first chance KK and TG got to know each other a little bit and that's a far cry from a negotiation. When TG previously denied having merger negotiations, it was probably true.

Today, he's saying they've had discussions. He also said that it's unlikely for '07 and more likely for '08. That's probably due to conteactual obligations of both sides.

And we really don't know how far these "talks" have gone, do we? Both KK and TG have said that they're being pretty careful about putting together a viable deal because the worst thing that could happen is to set it up for failure again. I certainly doubt that it's anywhere near the pen-to-paper stage.

FYI, the Autoweek article has been proven wrong, so don't use that as a benchmark. The Autoweek article said it was a done deal. As can be seen by the leaders of both sides, it's not.

courageous · 25 Mar 2006, 17:19 (Ref:1560423)

I don't normally like getting involved in merger threads (I am a natural pessemist, plus they always end up in sectarian slagging matches), but the indycar website itself has an article on it's front page - would they do that if the talks weren't serious?

http://www.indycar.com/news/story.php?story_id=6173

(mods: is there any way of linking the indycar & ccws forum threads on this?)

DefntlyDiffrnt · 25 Mar 2006, 20:55 (Ref:1560519)

Did anyone listen to Tony's press conference? They played portions of it after Qualies on the webcast. Anyway, sounded like it was going to happen just a matter of when and how to do it. Basically that they couldn't do everything that needed to be done in the next couple of years and you have a lot of things to consider before the merger can be completed.

That's sounding like pretty serious talks to me. Damn serious in fact.

Ronbo · 26 Mar 2006, 01:45 (Ref:1560721)

Quote:

Originally Posted by DefntlyDiffrnt

Did anyone listen to Tony's press conference? They played portions of it after Qualies on the webcast. Anyway, sounded like it was going to happen just a matter of when and how to do it.

That's sounding like pretty serious talks to me. Damn serious in fact.

Did you read this Indycool? You can't believe that Autoweek article, can you. You can't believe RM, you don't believe what he has to say, and we all know that we cant believe tg. So this press conference has to be wrong too!
Looks to me like everyone except tg was right, so far. Well, I guess he was right half of the time.

As for the merger, 07 would be the right time to move ahead with it, but if tg still wants to run things, like the several merger attemps in the past, it will never happen.
The irl needs CC more than CC needs the irl. It's just that simple. And if anything ever happens to Danika, it's over. Sooner than later.

I see the real problems being the contracts with tracks and promoters. The DP01, and the Cosworth are no problem. The DP01 might be a point of contention if the irl people demand N/A motors. Honda might be a problem, if they want too much control. They helped ruin CC and now they and Toyo have done it to the irl. CC does not need them at all. The money they bring would be welcome, but not at the expense of the series. CC is doing fine without Honda. Uncontrolled spending and escallating costs that having Honda in the mix bring, just are not worth it.

Maybe tg has finally seen that his vision has not worked. If that is true, then this might have a chance. If not, fuggetaboutit!!

indycool · 26 Mar 2006, 04:49 (Ref:1560758)

Ronbo, guess you can hurl insults and inaccuracies all over this board regarding and attacking TG and the IRL and it's apparently cool with the mods. If anyone even twitches about CC on the CC board, someone kills a thread or you get a PM and I believe that's just blatantly unfair.

If you'll look at the CC board, where this talk first resurfaced, you will see that I posted links to many articles that have run in the last couple of days on the subject.

You are just in the mode that everything that happens is TG's fault. We don't KNOW what the Penske initiative was in June of '04 that was rebuffed by CC management in 20 minutes on Penske's plane in the Detroit airport. We don't KNOW who has rejected what in previous merger discussions.

The IRL DOES NOT need CC. It's in better shape than CC. It has more cars, a TV contract and the Indianapolis 500 to start with. Kalkhoven is actually the one who has changed his tune about merger, from bringing a hammer to the podium for effect at the '04 awards banquet and calling it the Injury Racing League to him publicly saying, "we're talking. It'd be best to leave Tony and I alone."

It will NOT be TG's fault if they don'tmerge for '07. Both KK and TG have said this one's going to take awhile and don't discount '07 but say it's doubtful.

And here's Penske's take:

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/...ap2621678.html

Ronbo · 26 Mar 2006, 05:51 (Ref:1560801)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

Ronbo, guess you can hurl insults and inaccuracies all over this board regarding and attacking TG and the IRL and it's apparently cool with the mods. If anyone even twitches about CC on the CC board, someone kills a thread or you get a PM and I believe that's just blatantly unfair.

If you'll look at the CC board, where this talk first resurfaced, you will see that I posted links to many articles that have run in the last couple of days on the subject.

You are just in the mode that everything that happens is TG's fault. We don't KNOW what the Penske initiative was in June of '04 that was rebuffed by CC management in 20 minutes on Penske's plane in the Detroit airport. We don't KNOW who has rejected what in previous merger discussions.

The IRL DOES NOT need CC. It's in better shape than CC. It has more cars, a TV contract and the Indianapolis 500 to start with. Kalkhoven is actually the one who has changed his tune about merger, from bringing a hammer to the podium for effect at the '04 awards banquet and calling it the Injury Racing League to him publicly saying, "we're talking. It'd be best to leave Tony and I alone."

It will NOT be TG's fault if they don'tmerge for '07. Both KK and TG have said this one's going to take awhile and don't discount '07 but say it's doubtful.

And here's Penske's take:

http://www.forbes.com/home/feeds/ap/...ap2621678.html

Sorry that you won't beleive what is out there. Penske tried a merger. Mario tried to talk merger, Rahal tried. tg wanted total control, and that is why they all failed. I don't know what is different this time, but KK did not change his mind. Obviously, tg has had a change of heart.
And yes KK did say those things. He NEVER denied saying them, because he said them. Every one! But find a quote where he denied saying it. You can't.
tg went from denying that he was doing anything but being social, to announcing that they are working on a merger, and posting an article on his website. It can't be both. It Can't. So either he was not telling the truth first, or not telling it now. Thats all I am saying. KK never said that. He said to leave them alone, but he didn't deny it. That's all I am saying. tg has a proven record of denial. There is no such thing as a little white lie. Either it's the truth, or it's not.

As for hurling insults and inaccuracies, that is just your opinion.

Nothing more.

The evidence shows that I am not innacurate at all. But thats ok. I can live with it. As for insults, who did I insult? If I ever insulted you, I appologize. Never meant to.

As for CC needing the irl? Are you kidding? The irl has a tv contract, because they have the 500. No other reason. The irl dropped what, 3 races this year? CC has added races. The irl lost both Chevy and Toyota. Teams are running on funding from tg. And I am not talking about his team. 33 looks like a pipe dream. The "Month" of May has been whittled down to 2 weeks. If it were not for teams like Rahal entering 6 cars into the 500, the field would not even be close to full, but remember tg said that 33 is only a number. Who was it, Hemmelgarn, who auctioned off their stuff on ebay? The irl cars are 5+ years old, with no new equiptment on the horizon.

CC on the other hand, is expanding. They look to have more than 30 entries for their feeder series, with brand new cars, in Long Beach. In fact, the last time I looked, they have sold 41 cars or more. It was not until this weekend, anyone even knew if there would be a IPS. And if the rumor mill is to be believed at all, it appears that Rahal, Ganassi, and possibly Penske, will return to CC in '07. If that happens, then the irl is done.
As for 2007, with the new chassis and all teams being on a level playing field, and if the Atlantic car sales are any indication at all, 2007 will be a huge year for CC. KK is on his 5 year plan, and this is the beginning of year 3. KK has done more in 2 full years, than tg has done in 10. If that is insulting,......?? Oh, well?

D.R.T. · 26 Mar 2006, 07:15 (Ref:1561075)

Quote:

Originally Posted by indycool

The IRL DOES NOT need CC. It's in better shape than CC. It has more cars,

I dont think 1 car more is too much to write home about here, Indycool

drdisque · 26 Mar 2006, 07:43 (Ref:1561093)

the month of may is just as long as it was in 1995

1 of the races the IRL dropped this year was because the track closed, remember that.

I don't think TG felt comfortable dealing with the CART people, after all, they tried to screw him over many a time. The patients were truly running the asylum over there. Teams can't run their own series successfully. I think what's different now is that he feels that KK is a single face and one that he can deal with.

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