Will Danica ever win a race?

[luke]

Originally Posted by deejay

If it has nothing to do with her being female then why are you comparing her to another female driver?

And what exactly IS that photo supposed to prove?

That's irrelevant it hs nothing to do with her being female for the last flippin' time that's why I credited Fisher's better result.

And 2 I posted a small pic responding showing an example of how far the IRL is marketing with her posing revealing pics in mens magazines as some one said she is good looking.

[paul-collins]

To be fair, it wasn't the IRL that put her in FHM. She was in Atlantics at the time.

She's created her own marketing aura of being the hottie, IRL is simply extending the run. And why wouldn't they? It means that, so long as she's not a backmarker, they can use her presence continuously.

I think we can stop piling on luke at this point. While not as elegantly put as some might like, it has merit - she is where she is, because she's successfully marketed herself. That said, her talent thus far hasn't proven itself in any of her racing disciplines, since karting. So if her success in the market isn't results-based, what is it based upon?

(runshaw, your memory is correct - she finished 2nd in the FFFestival after running fourth but avoiding an incident between the 2nd and 3rd place runners in the last lap)

[NAC]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

she is where she is, because she's successfully marketed herself.

Now she sounds like Madonna

[Dutton]

Madonna pushed the boundaries throughout the '80s/early-90s. That period deserves respect, IMO.

[Hazard]

???

Lets stick to insulting Danica. Whoops.

Or maybe even, long shot I know, reasoned debate?

[Dutton]

Sorry......but I didn't start it! I apologise.

***********

Originally Posted by luke

Sarah Fisher scored a 2nd place finish at Homestead in 2001. Better than what Danica has ever done as Danica is probably a 1/3rd or 2/3rds lighter than Sarah.

1/3-2/3 lighter? That is a simply ridiculous proposition.

[luke]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Sorry......but I didn't start it! I apologise.

***********



1/3-2/3 lighter? That is a simply ridiculous proposition.

This isn't a driver's body weight thread.

[Dutton]

I am not going to make claims as to what the fractions or percentages are (I do not know their precise relative masses), but I simply do not accept that your claim is remotely sensible on any level.

Let us suppose, to pick an arbitrary figure, Fisher is 75kg. That would make Danica in the 25-50kg range. This does not seem like a reasonable proposition to me.

It is not remotely nit-picking. You were making the difference in mass a mentionable factor in the relative successes of Danica compared to Fisher. Since extra mass is always going to be a penalty in this situation, this makes the difference between them very important for ascertaining the impact on performance.

If you are going to bring this up as part of your argument, then you should take the time to work out what is actually a reasonable approximation of the difference.

I will add that this post is in response to a question luke asked before he edited his post to say it is not a "driver weight" thread. It is not a driver weight thread, you are right: you have, however, brought driver mass into it as part of your case against Danica. I am responding to what I see as flaw in your argument that you brought up against Danica. If this thread is not meant to have driver mass in it, then you should not have used it as part of your argument.

[nycuk]

Originally Posted by Dutton

Madonna pushed the boundaries throughout the '80s/early-90s. That period deserves respect, IMO.

Hardly... Racing? Yes. Music? No. Apart from The Stone Roses.......

Seriously though. I was at the Indy 500 this year and I saw more Danica T-shirts than any other. During the driver announcements before the race Danica got the biggest cheer BY FAR. Maybe it doesn't matter if she never wins a race if she draws the crowds? My girlfriend was bored as anything at Indy (whilst I was in seventh heaven...) but she suddenly got interested when she realised there was a woman running towards the front...

[Dutton]

Does this mean you are getting to watch the IRL races on the big TV now?

[JohnSSC]

According to the IRL, Danica weighs in at 100 lbs even. Sarah weighs in at 120 lbs. Perhaps I fell asleep that day in math class, but how exactly do we get Danica weighing 1/3 or even 2/3s of Sarah?

And while we are at it, Sarah has a 2nd place to her credit and while Danica does not, she does have more podium finishes.

Point here is, when we are discussing Hornish vs Castroneves, no one talks about their weight or puts up pictures to demonstrate that Helio just isn't as pretty as we might think.

By the way, "Ray of Light" and "Confessions of a Dance Floor" are two of Madonna's best CDs imho...

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

According to the IRL, Danica wieghs in at 100 lbs even. Sarah weighs in at 120 lbs. Perhaps I fell asleep that day in math class, but how exactly do we get Danica weighing 1/3 or even 2/3s of Sarah?

For the last time John please don't put words on my your computer and claim I said them. 1 it was a hint of sarcasm and 2 I said; 'probably'.

And 3. Can you just let things go for once?

[JohnSSC]

Perhaps folks should keep that image in mind before they start slagging drivers because of how they look...

[Dutton]

Of course, if the IRL did the sensible thing and made a minimum-mass inclusive of driver and car, then this would all be a moot point.

[luke]

Originally Posted by JohnSSC

Perhaps folks should keep that image in mind before they start slagging drivers because of how they look...

For another last time John I didn't slag her off because of her look or even slag her off!

I never said she was ugly. Someone said she was attractive I posted a picture of her that was previously posted on this forum showing what she looks like without all the hype, not demonstrating is she sexy or not but demonstrating part of her massive Danica hype.

[JohnSSC]

But I really like the slower moving targets...I am getting older and don't move as quickly as I used to...

If you posted it, you have to stand by it!

[deejay]

Originally Posted by paul-collins

That said, her talent thus far hasn't proven itself in any of her racing disciplines, since karting. So if her success in the market isn't results-based, what is it based upon?

3 poles
7 top 5's
24 top 10's

While obviously not the Fangio of IRL, I think her results, and more so just observing her on-track ability, justify her place in the series without question.

And if this has to descend into Sarah vs Danica – well just compare how the two have gone against Buddy Rice. Danica often outperformed Buddy, while Sarah just looks a class below. (and I’m by no means suggesting Sarah shouldn’t be in the series, I like her and think she’s of great value, and without her Danica may never even have got _into_ the series).

Despite endless internet threads, I still can't quite grasp why there is all this distaste for Danica. It doesn't seem to amount to anything other than people not liking her because she's popular and brings attention to the sport...

Does that strike anyone else as ridiculous?

[Dutton]

I ask people to read, comprehend, and digest this post in its entirety before responding. I have done my best to be as clear as possible with my thoughts, and it would be annoying to face counter-points that are dealt with in the post itself.

Other than that, let it be normal service.

********

Yeah, I know what you mean. She may not be brilliant, but she is better than a lot of other drivers are.

I often feel the main issue people have is that whilst they may consider her decent enough to be in the series, they do not think her exploits to date merit a drive of the AGR level. They view it like a wasted seat: more specifically, they see her sex as being a major factor in her signing. I have some degree of sympathy with this specific aspect, but then this is not something you can hold against Danica (what is she meant to do? Turn the drive down?).

On the other side, it could be the very fact that she is actually showing herself to be half-decent (and she is not terrible: she is half-decent) that is part of the problem. A lot of people (some consciously; some unconsciously) find it difficult to deal with females breaking into arenas that have traditionally been a male stronghold. This is a sad situation, but I have found it to be the case.

I personally hope she can develop her talents and improve. Motorsport is in the dark ages RE female involvement, thus any progress that can be made to alter this has to be a positive. This does not mean I want female drivers who are useless (that is just counter-productive in the extreme), but those whio are reasonable (the likes of Danica) I want to see get a reasonable shot.

One must remember that, overall, the entire system is weighted extremely in favour of males. It should be applauded, ultimately, when these barriers start getting broken down, rather than mercilessly attacked.

[JohnSSC]

JohnSSC raises his hand and says: "Yes, deejay, it is ridiculous!"

But Dutton, it is not like she had bad results when she was at Rahal, either. She is performing consistent with the level of the team she is in.

Simply plugging a butt in a race seat (mine for example) does not equate to results. A good team needs a good driver, Putting a piker like myself in there would only get you what you would expect: me likely stalling the car before I got out of the pit box...

[Dutton]

Naturally, and I am not saying she is a bad driver. I am not saying she does not deserve to be in the series. Quite the opposite.

I think it is a valid point, though, that to drive a for a top-team the drivers need to be more than just decent. They have to be something extra. In the case of AGR, one could say, for example, Dario has that extra but Dancia does not. For the lower teams the standard is not quite the same typically (except the minority cases where it is the mega-talent working up: this is a fast process).

I personally don't mind her at AGR. IMO she is not quite the level such teams would normally have, but she is close enough to be justifiable. Improvement is always possible, and I for one sincerely hope she takes a step up (good for her, the team, the IRL, and motorsport at large).

[deejay]

Well, AGR being a four car team is a bit of special circumstance.

TK and Dario are clearly their lead drivers. Marco and Danica their "development" drivers, if you like.

Marco going straight into AGR as a rookie is perhaps more questionable than Danica being their now. But there's an obvious reason for that - and that's fine. Motorsport works like that a LOT of the time. At ALL levels.

[Dutton]

I entirely agree. I do not think anyone on this thread would disagree with that.

The issue of contention is whether this is "right".

[deejay]

What does it matter if it's right? It's how it is. It's not going to change.

And I don't see why Danica should be singled out for it.

[Dutton]

I have not singled her out for it. I specifically stated that there is no way she should be.

Yes, there is nothing we say that is going to change anything. If we are going to apply that standard to forum discussion then they may as well close the site down now.

[deejay]

Don't go overboard.

It's just that suggesting we should debate whether the long-standing motorsport tradition of it being not what you know but who you know, is "right", seems a long way from debating whether we think Danica will win a race.